This is a placeholder text
Group text
by joanro on 06 December 2012 - 04:12
Minicus, that will be helpful til you run up against the unscrupulous trainers :(
by Minicus on 06 December 2012 - 04:12
@ Joanro - Can't win can I LOL..
by joanro on 06 December 2012 - 04:12
LOL. There's unscruples around every corner .LOL.
by Hundmutter on 06 December 2012 - 04:12
Its worth remembering this, too, everyone: even when a breeder is an ethical, careful
person, and does ask potential buyers all sorts of questions, about their experience
and where the dog will live, who will be with the dog most, what they are going to 'do'
in the way of training, work, showing etc etc ...
buyers CAN and DO tell lies, in answer to those questions.
If someone is caught out doing that, what are the odds they would tell the truth if they go
on the 'Net to protest they have been badly treated by the breeder of their dog ?
person, and does ask potential buyers all sorts of questions, about their experience
and where the dog will live, who will be with the dog most, what they are going to 'do'
in the way of training, work, showing etc etc ...
buyers CAN and DO tell lies, in answer to those questions.
If someone is caught out doing that, what are the odds they would tell the truth if they go
on the 'Net to protest they have been badly treated by the breeder of their dog ?
by Preston on 06 December 2012 - 07:12
Breeding healthy GSDs is very difficult and even the best most reputable breeders will breed puppies with latent problems that are not obvious. To do a comprehensive vetting for these, it costs a great deal and most good breeders cannot afford to do this. My solution has been to personally select the puppy I want, pay to have it vetted with permission of the breeder and a first right of refusal sales agreement. If the puppy vets out I buy it for the agreed price, if not I am out the vet costs and no sale is closed. I believe it is the buyers responsibility to vet for latent, non observable or non obvious problems. Any ethical breeder will be happy to assist a buyer in this way if they assume financial responsibility for this vetting for latent problems.
What are these? Screening X-rays for hips in young pups, hips and elbows in older puppies 9 months+; TLI for possible EPI; thyroid screening and blood chemistries; barium swallow for mega-esophagus (mild is hard to DX without that but will become problematic later); and there are numerous DNA diagnostic tests available using cheek swabs (non-invasive by mail lab tests such as for long coat or degenerative myopathy). Some folks recommend screening for the various free bleeding disorders (Von Wildebrands and others). EPI is quite nasty as it apears later when the pancreatic production of necessary enzymes for god digestion fail. Perhaps related to genetics and maybe a reaction in some to certain vaccines? typicaaly a low TLI as a young puppy is associated.
A comprehensive Vet physical exam is essential by a Vet experienced in GSDs. A common issue in puppies that look and act normal and one that can cause sudden death later on in adulthood on hot days for no apparent reason is aortic arch stenosis, a narrowing of the aortic arch which is very hard to hear unless one uses an amplified stethoscope or is done by a very experienced Vet, or an EKG is used).
So I say that the buyer must always beware and that does not mean that ethical breeders are not doing their job when they sell a puppy with a non-observable latent problem. No ethical breeder would knowingly do this, but if a puppy looks and acts normal they will sell them, hoping for the best. There are some breeders that vet every puppy quite thoroughly. These puppies often have great guarantees and are very high priced and justifiably so. And there are some buyers that will only by a GSD one year or over that X-rays clean at both ends and vets out completely. At this age in most cases the elbow x-rays are usually definitive, and hip X-rays also about 80%+ diagnostic.
What are these? Screening X-rays for hips in young pups, hips and elbows in older puppies 9 months+; TLI for possible EPI; thyroid screening and blood chemistries; barium swallow for mega-esophagus (mild is hard to DX without that but will become problematic later); and there are numerous DNA diagnostic tests available using cheek swabs (non-invasive by mail lab tests such as for long coat or degenerative myopathy). Some folks recommend screening for the various free bleeding disorders (Von Wildebrands and others). EPI is quite nasty as it apears later when the pancreatic production of necessary enzymes for god digestion fail. Perhaps related to genetics and maybe a reaction in some to certain vaccines? typicaaly a low TLI as a young puppy is associated.
A comprehensive Vet physical exam is essential by a Vet experienced in GSDs. A common issue in puppies that look and act normal and one that can cause sudden death later on in adulthood on hot days for no apparent reason is aortic arch stenosis, a narrowing of the aortic arch which is very hard to hear unless one uses an amplified stethoscope or is done by a very experienced Vet, or an EKG is used).
So I say that the buyer must always beware and that does not mean that ethical breeders are not doing their job when they sell a puppy with a non-observable latent problem. No ethical breeder would knowingly do this, but if a puppy looks and acts normal they will sell them, hoping for the best. There are some breeders that vet every puppy quite thoroughly. These puppies often have great guarantees and are very high priced and justifiably so. And there are some buyers that will only by a GSD one year or over that X-rays clean at both ends and vets out completely. At this age in most cases the elbow x-rays are usually definitive, and hip X-rays also about 80%+ diagnostic.
by workingdogz on 06 December 2012 - 12:12
Holy shit, we just find a puppy from the proven health tested
lines we want, from a reputable breeder who actually lives and works
with the dam and send our money, we 'takes our chances'.
It's worked out pretty good over all these years
lines we want, from a reputable breeder who actually lives and works
with the dam and send our money, we 'takes our chances'.
It's worked out pretty good over all these years
by Gustav on 06 December 2012 - 12:12
Thank you, wkingdogz, my sentiments exactly. I have bought more puppies than most of you....I don't consider guarantees and don't expect one. There is NO guarantee on a living creature...period! I find breeders that I know very very well, in most cases, and take my chances on the pups....period. Once a puppy comes to me, it is mine and that is period also. If you are a novice, I think it be hooves you to have a longtime experienced person advise you on breeders and dogs. Having said all that, I say this also....the more guarantees and contractual stuff you have....the more chance you have of selling to totally unreasonable people that have nothing to lose but tear you down. Now I know my position isn't popular with the current culture, but it's what I believe and by not having websites and advertisements, I escape a lot of the crazies....cause it ain't about money to me nor ever was. One last thing...with ll the puppies I have bought, you have never seen me come on a public forum and complain about a puppy....and believe me I have received pups that weren't perfect as any transaction with living things entail, but shit happens and I understand BEFORE and AFTER the purchase....JMO
by workingdogz on 06 December 2012 - 13:12
Gustav;
It's been our experience over the years dealing with EU breeders,
that in the event there is an issue like HD, they will usually make
an offer of another puppy, you simply pay shipping. They are by no
means obligated to do so, we purchase without guarantees.
We update the breeders we purchase from as a courtesy, especially
if there is an issue with joints, bite or testcles etc. This is done merely
as a courtesy so they can factor it into their breeding decisions.
And yes, we too have had a rare 'surprise' at the airport. Or a puppy
with bad joints, we simply made the decision that was best for the
puppy after communicating our concerns with the breeder.
It's been our experience over the years dealing with EU breeders,
that in the event there is an issue like HD, they will usually make
an offer of another puppy, you simply pay shipping. They are by no
means obligated to do so, we purchase without guarantees.
We update the breeders we purchase from as a courtesy, especially
if there is an issue with joints, bite or testcles etc. This is done merely
as a courtesy so they can factor it into their breeding decisions.
And yes, we too have had a rare 'surprise' at the airport. Or a puppy
with bad joints, we simply made the decision that was best for the
puppy after communicating our concerns with the breeder.
by LadyFrost on 06 December 2012 - 14:12
well....don't want to deal w/ breeders try shelters....all my 4 dogs are some kind of rescue..1 out of 4 with hip issue (injury) none with HD are pretty good odds w/o paper work and head ache of contracts/attorneys and with less than a $100 in adoption fee's per one (actually 1 with a hip issue was free) so go figure...one came with complete OB training...Anyways....its just sad what happens when people $ get involved....
by kitkat3478 on 06 December 2012 - 14:12
Unfortunately tho, there are FAR MORE uneducated buyers out there buying dogs, than educated ones, and with that comes FAR MORE unscupulous sellers to go along with them.
I myself feel they should be help accountable.
How many buyers would race to the BEST source for a Healthy, Sound dog, If there ad said, "take your chances- NO Guarantee here".,
The FACT is, people want German Shepherds, the fact that they maybe should not have one, or are unable to care properly, for a well bred dog is not the issue, IF you know what you want, and more important,where to get it, that is priceless,
But for the novice, as many of us were when we started,(and I myself am far from being any sort of expert),the person selling pups should have to be accountable, to at least a reasonable degree.
I myself feel they should be help accountable.
How many buyers would race to the BEST source for a Healthy, Sound dog, If there ad said, "take your chances- NO Guarantee here".,
The FACT is, people want German Shepherds, the fact that they maybe should not have one, or are unable to care properly, for a well bred dog is not the issue, IF you know what you want, and more important,where to get it, that is priceless,
But for the novice, as many of us were when we started,(and I myself am far from being any sort of expert),the person selling pups should have to be accountable, to at least a reasonable degree.
Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top