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by Siantha on 23 October 2012 - 19:10
When importing a puppy when you never saw the litter it is a crapshoot that you will be getting a dog with drives :D i got a pet hahaha
by Rik on 23 October 2012 - 20:10
"puppies are a crap shoot" is a term I have heard from the beginning of my involvement in pure bred dogs. I have never heard it used in a derogatory or even descriptive manner. Just a statement of fact, usually by people who have been there and done that. As in "If you want a Champion, It's better to start with an adult rather than take a chance on a puppy".
It's kind of bewildering that anyone would be offended by such simple logic or not understand what is being said. A crap shoot is a game of chance, not what a bear does in the woods.
It's kind of bewildering that anyone would be offended by such simple logic or not understand what is being said. A crap shoot is a game of chance, not what a bear does in the woods.
by Jenni78 on 23 October 2012 - 20:10
A lot of breeders who say they've never had any problems are the ones who sell to pet homes almost exclusively and the people don't keep in touch and certainly don't test or xray. I've been extremely fortunate, myself, but would never say that I couldn't have an un-xrayed pup out there that might not pass OFA if they were xrayed. What's been xrayed has been great...but there are a handful that haven't been. It is what it is; the more pet homes you sell to, the less likely you are to hear about problems imo.
by Gigante on 23 October 2012 - 21:10
As in "If you want a Champion, It's better to start with an adult rather than take a chance on a puppy".
Im with you on that rik. I think thats a really big piece to this crap shoot & warranty question. I have never lost out in bringing home a new addition to the family. In one way or another each added value to the experience even when coming with serious or small baggage or none. Much is tied to our expectations and wishes for what we want, from that which we are adding. No different then your kids. In this case crap shoot might be seen to some as demeaning, without further review. The product defect and expectation's maybe should not be mingled so much since the majority by far have different expectations.
Those terrible 98%er pet people that so many are fortunate enough not to have to deal with might argue that its not a crap shoot to bring home a new family member. Their expectation's are to love a dog and for a dog love them, kinda of a easy target. The self described 1% top breeder has a clientele that have performance expectations first as well as health expectations and the love to and from are way down the line, hence the crap shoot.
Im with you on that rik. I think thats a really big piece to this crap shoot & warranty question. I have never lost out in bringing home a new addition to the family. In one way or another each added value to the experience even when coming with serious or small baggage or none. Much is tied to our expectations and wishes for what we want, from that which we are adding. No different then your kids. In this case crap shoot might be seen to some as demeaning, without further review. The product defect and expectation's maybe should not be mingled so much since the majority by far have different expectations.
Those terrible 98%er pet people that so many are fortunate enough not to have to deal with might argue that its not a crap shoot to bring home a new family member. Their expectation's are to love a dog and for a dog love them, kinda of a easy target. The self described 1% top breeder has a clientele that have performance expectations first as well as health expectations and the love to and from are way down the line, hence the crap shoot.
by sentinelharts on 23 October 2012 - 22:10
Many people come on here and state that they would not give back a dog if it developed problems because they would have become attached to it. Not everyone is looking for just a pet. Some look to purchase a dog that will be suitable for sport, work or breeding. For most, it is both. Regardless, it is highly likely that buyers do become attached to puppies and want to keep them even when there is a problem but, some decide to rehome the dog or sell it. If the breeder is not willing to offer at least a replacement guarantee, then how much does the breeder beleive in or back their own program.
Assuming a puppy is sold on a warranty and later a problem does arise that is not critical, but is a defect that makes the dog "imperfect". Would the dog have been sold for full price from the breeder in the first place? Probably not, it would likely have been sold as a pet at a reduced price or perhaps placed in a suitable home. My point is that the dog is not valueless. The breeder should replace the puppy if the purchaser wants another dog but should they get another dog for free? Most often, buyers do want to keep the first dog and are not ready for another dog but what about about those who wanted a breeding animal or a competition dog. I personally feel that the breeder should take this on a case by case basis and do the right thing by the buyer, but there must be something in writing in a contract. There is no way to predict each possible situation in one catch all phrase in a contract.
Also, in regards to health testing- many newer buyers do not know where to start when doing their research. How does someone show that they have healthy dogs- Should the phrase "I have never had _____ health problem in my dogs" suffice? Or is it better to have taken the dog in and gotten verifiable certification by a veterinarian to show the dog's health in independent categories a bit better? Is it really that much different than titles- One could SAY that their breeding dogs can work or are highly trainable OR they can breed dogs that are titled....
Assuming a puppy is sold on a warranty and later a problem does arise that is not critical, but is a defect that makes the dog "imperfect". Would the dog have been sold for full price from the breeder in the first place? Probably not, it would likely have been sold as a pet at a reduced price or perhaps placed in a suitable home. My point is that the dog is not valueless. The breeder should replace the puppy if the purchaser wants another dog but should they get another dog for free? Most often, buyers do want to keep the first dog and are not ready for another dog but what about about those who wanted a breeding animal or a competition dog. I personally feel that the breeder should take this on a case by case basis and do the right thing by the buyer, but there must be something in writing in a contract. There is no way to predict each possible situation in one catch all phrase in a contract.
Also, in regards to health testing- many newer buyers do not know where to start when doing their research. How does someone show that they have healthy dogs- Should the phrase "I have never had _____ health problem in my dogs" suffice? Or is it better to have taken the dog in and gotten verifiable certification by a veterinarian to show the dog's health in independent categories a bit better? Is it really that much different than titles- One could SAY that their breeding dogs can work or are highly trainable OR they can breed dogs that are titled....
by vonissk on 24 October 2012 - 00:10
I agree that puppies are a crapshoot regardless of whether you see the litter or not or pick the puppy yourself or have an experienced breeder pick it for you. And you guys are right about the people just buying for pets--they rarely, if ever, even register the puppy/dog, much less have any kind of health testing done. My sights are set far and above producing pets. I will always take a dog back, regardless of it's problem, whether it be healthwise or otherwise. I do not want any of my dogs to end up in shelters or rescues or going here or there. Any puppy I sell has some sort of guarantee, depending on it if goes for LTD or Full registration and what the puppy is to be used for. I'll replace your puppy if it is on full but only after talks with the owner's vet and an examination by mine and/or a neutral vet to both of us. And Jenn you make a good point about the more pet homes you sell to, the less likely you are to hear about problems. JMO..................
by kitkat3478 on 24 October 2012 - 01:10
IF I give a pup away for free, I am giving a dog with the "expectation" that the dog is sound and free from defects,(excluding of course a color flaw or the occassional white tippy toes), IF a problem should turn up, I'm going to replace that dog with one free of genetic defects.
I myself don't think that price should have any bearing on if you stand behind what you produce ! I guess that is just me
WHY should a sport persons money be more important than a pet persons money ? Why should a pet person ONLY be able to obtain the sport peoples rejects?
I have one of my pups going now, hoping to make it as a police dog.Will he make it,who knows, time will tell.
I would think that a person that bought a pup for a pet that developes a problem, would in fact tell a person their dog has issues, especially if they have a guarantee of a new dog, FOR FREE. AND, if a pet persons dog developes a serious medical condition, it shouldn't take a test to show it, you would think a medical problem would become, painfully obvious.
It isn't the phrase "crap shoot" I have issue with, (what do you think, when I bought a couple rather expensive dogs I didn't sweat a few bullets waiting to see if anything popped up ?)It's more the way some handle the issue that bothers me.
(Some want to sell a sport dog than cry foul when issues come up)
I guess some of these breeders never sell a pup just for pets, all are just Top sport dog producers,only placing your defective pups with regular people.
I am more than happy not being a member of that club.
I myself don't think that price should have any bearing on if you stand behind what you produce ! I guess that is just me
WHY should a sport persons money be more important than a pet persons money ? Why should a pet person ONLY be able to obtain the sport peoples rejects?
I have one of my pups going now, hoping to make it as a police dog.Will he make it,who knows, time will tell.
I would think that a person that bought a pup for a pet that developes a problem, would in fact tell a person their dog has issues, especially if they have a guarantee of a new dog, FOR FREE. AND, if a pet persons dog developes a serious medical condition, it shouldn't take a test to show it, you would think a medical problem would become, painfully obvious.
It isn't the phrase "crap shoot" I have issue with, (what do you think, when I bought a couple rather expensive dogs I didn't sweat a few bullets waiting to see if anything popped up ?)It's more the way some handle the issue that bothers me.
(Some want to sell a sport dog than cry foul when issues come up)
I guess some of these breeders never sell a pup just for pets, all are just Top sport dog producers,only placing your defective pups with regular people.
I am more than happy not being a member of that club.
by vonissk on 24 October 2012 - 01:10
Again just my 2 cents. I don't sell rejects because I don't have any. I pick my puppies as to what the people are wanting for their particular situation. If you call me and want a more laid back family dog then I am definately not going to sell you the dog I picked for SAR. My concentration is on SAR and service dogs. I feel there are already enough dogs to need pet homes without intentionally breeding more. I also never give away puppies. Yes I donate one to a working situation. I figure if a person can't pay my price, which is low, for LTD registration then how are they going to take care of it later. When a puppy leaves here, it has been wormed, started on heartworm, almost housebroken, first shots, vet checked, AKC puppy application, pedigree, contract and a schedule of the puppy's everyday activities so not only will it make the transition to a new home easier, it makes it easier to finish housebreaking them. I also have certain handouts that if they are interested, they are welcome to. I send pics every week. When I pick your puppy, I then send you updates and pics of that puppy. I only take depostits after the vet check. When you leave here, you are taking a perfectly healthy puppy with my reccomendations that you take the puppy to your personal vet within 72 hours for a followup checkup. If at that time, something is wrong then you bring my puppy back and I will happily refund your money. This is the same for every puppy--I don't discriminate between full and ltd registration. IMO if you go to a shelter there is definately no guarantee the dog you bring home is healthy and if you get a free puppy you may find out it's not always free. I put far too much time and energy into a litter to just send them down the road for nothing. And not only do I want a relationship with my puppy customers, I want a good reputation. I have already found out all that work is not for nothing as I already have a waiting list for my next litter and the people are those who have gotten good reviews on me through word of mouth. I am hoping to donate one either for SAR and a guide dog and one is going for a service dog and one for a working farm dog. These are the kinds of places I want my dogs to go because I want mine to always remain as healthy working dogs..........
by kitkat3478 on 24 October 2012 - 02:10
Vonissk- and that is exactly how mine head out the door, that is how it should be.
I will give a family member or friend a pup for free. I placed the two dogs I got back last year due to the economy in service-therapy dog homes , free, but with a guarantee still.
I will give a family member or friend a pup for free. I placed the two dogs I got back last year due to the economy in service-therapy dog homes , free, but with a guarantee still.
by Minicus on 24 October 2012 - 18:10
Does it stand to reason that puppies from generations of Good hips and elbows have a better chance of not having HD or is it not. Otherwise I wonder why such the emphasis on Health tests. I realize many puppies are not tested in pet homes so it is hard to get a true picture but just wondering what your thoughts are
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