Breeding an almost 9 year old female? - Page 3

For the record, EVERYBODY who breeds purebred animals breeds them for the money.  They're not giving 'em away, for the most part.

When breeders claims they don't make any money from the sale of a litter, they're counting the cost of just maintaining the bitch pre-pregnancy, pregnant, and post-pregnancy, in addition to the cost of feeding the pups when weaned and any vaccination and worming costs involved for them.  If you take the cost of maintaining the bitch out of the equation, though, breeders DO make money from the litters--it's just a matter of whether they're trying to make their living from the practice, or to just make enough to cover the costs of showing, trialing, etc.  Those making a living from breeding are more likely to bred back to back heat cycles, but those are also the ones that tend not to keep any of their females once they've passed their prime breeding ages--why feed a bitch that is probably only to have litters of 3-5 pups, when they can feed one that will produces litters of 8-12 pups for the same amount of care? 

Hexe, considering their pups are about $1,800 each......Many litters have had 8-12 in them.....And as many litters as they have....  It's nothing to do with "everybody who breeds purebred animals breeds them for the money"....It's they're more like a upscale puppy mill making bank, and often at that.  Cost of feeding pups really is not that expensive even with 10, even on a very high quality food from when they are weaned until they go to their new homes. Not in comparison to the price of a puppy anyway.  Vaccines......If you know how to administer them yourself can be bought at the vets office and you can do them, I can get mine for $12 a piece (If I let my vet administer them it's $28 a piece).....Again that's not much.  All things like OFA's and some (not all) of the health tests are only done early in the dogs life, and not done every single time the female is going to be bred.  Obviously certain things you will want to have tested again before a breeding, but you get the point.  To one of your last statements, they have sold some of their older females.  Maybe this one is such a solid producer and she's doing so well that they want to keep producing the pups from her.....who knows.   

I am more disappointed that people are so used to females being in deplorable physical shape at 8-9 years old. Seriously, we are way too complacent about dogs in poor condition, imo. I see dogs all the time that look, to me, 10-12 but I know they're not...they're 5-7. They look like hell. Gray, glassy eyes, dull coats, fat...just icky. 8 shouldn't "seem" that old. 

Hexe is right- the canine uterus is aging with every cycle, bred or not. Better to breed them often and young.

--- >  I read last night on line someone advertising a Berner male for stud on E-bay. Can you believe it. Really sad. and surely should be illegal
That is aviolation of Ebays TOS! This person should be reported!


  Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry (a health registry for registered German Shepherds)
BE PROACTIVE!
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate  

Jenni, right, an 8 year old dog shouldn't act as some might have said.....My point was never that an 8 year old dog is "so old" that it's near death or anything.....   But what good is a dog's life is it's spent popping out puppies for a good 7 or 8 years (2-9 or 10) of it? 

I've heard and understand the theory that if an older bitch is perfectly healthy and bred back-to-back when older, then she should be fine.  But the experience I've had shows otherwise, for all the litters that I've whelped for other breeders I think only 9 or 10 were from dams 8 yrs or older.  Some of the dams had been bred back-to-back during their older age because of this theory.  Not a single one of those dams (the breeds include poodle, GSD, labrador and CKCS) had more than 2 surviving pups, most of them lost their entire litter.   I know that 9 or 10 litters out of older dams isn't a whole lot of experience to go by, but it's enough for me. 

The oldest I've ever bred any of my own females is 6 yrs, I've never had more than 3 litters from any female that I personally bred.  (One GSD female, 2 mini doxie females)
I only breed if I was interested in keeping back a pup.  I personally hate selling (not because I hate seeing the puppies go, but because I really hate selling, I suck as a sales person.)  But, if I was to really get into breeding yearly then the absolute tops for me would be breeding a female back-to-back, skip, back-to-back, skip, etc. starting at 2 yrs and ending around the 6th birthday.  Which would be a total of 6 litters and a comfortable age for a female to retire (possibly to a new indoor family home.)

GuyL
   It is very common in Germany, Belgium or many excellent German shepherd kennels, under excellent progheny , of good health bitches 9 yrs old are bred. MANY of them are bred back to back, as an excellent healthy , german shepherd, of which there are many, and is bred to proper males, under the assumption, we have well knowledge breeding, no health problems and that is not a rare thing, contary to some postings., a bitch at 9 yrs old can safely have a nice  6, 7 pup litter.

   There is a difference in the calipher of breeder and the calipher of dog , line or kennel .

   DO not short sell , people in the breeding of germans, not knowing that their dog is eligible.

   The breeders of our breed I know , would not breed if they did not have strong , healthy females.

  IT Depends on the line and the dog.

   IS is safe or healthy to breed a 20 month old female??? NO   can be that anwser also..THAT is a teen ager...A dogs body is not firmly charged with its full growth patterns and has still not been healthy long enough or is old enough to be properly evaluated. A lot of people breed 20  month old bitches..I am under the opinion that is it much safer to breed a 9 yrs old healthy bitch , than a questionable yet a youngster 20 month old female and we read about it all the time..

A big question to think about...IT all depends on the individual health of the female and her record of progheny.

YR

GSDGuy, a breeder selling pups for $1800, that's nowhere near as 'dear' a price as others that come to mind...I was thinking more in the way of the ones who sell their pups in the 2-3 K [for 'pet quality'] range.   Still, even at a $1000.00 price per pup, a litter of 10 grosses $10K, and then there's the question as to how much of that income is reported  as such for tax purposes.  One can live quite nicely off a couple of well-bred females in excellent condition that whelp two litters per year each; it's not hard to see why this appears an attractive option to many people, regardless of the breed.

The same circumstances used to proliferate among horse breeders, though they only got a single foal to sell from each breeding; but that was when there was an outlet for unwanted horses that breeders were aware of but hated the thought of, as they produced a new colt or filly every year.  Now that there aren't any slaughterhouses in the US that are buying the 'excess' horses--the ones that can't run anymore, the ones that aren't rideable, those whose owners can't afford the price of keeping and feeding a horse--the prices for the majority of horses born each year is in the toilet, and unless you've got a major reputation on the show circuits, rodeos or race tracks, you count your blessings if you can get $100.00 for a 'green' foal or yearling.  If a similar situation befell the dog breeders here in the US, it would be quite interesting to see how many people drop out of the game. 

I see two separate discussions in this thread: there's the science of breeding at each estrus and into the early senior years, and then there's the debate as to what constitutes unscrupulous breeding practices.  I'm not in the mood for the latter, so I focused on answering the questions pertaining to the first.

Price and breeding practices are two separate issues entirely and should not be referenced together.  Too high or too low a price is another topic.  Breeders needing the money risking there animals health...yes.

If someone wants to start a topic about puppy pricing, business models and sales metrics I would love to participate.

The price of a puppy has nothing to do with whether a female should or should not be bred.

Separate issues.


 

With everything that has been said here, I have to wonder, why wold someone breed a bitch from 2yr-to 9yr old back to back every heat.  Good Lord if by the time they reach 6-7, if a breeder hasn't got what they want out of that said bitch, whats the odds they will get it out of her at 9yr old?  Just my opinion as I feel breeding a bitch just because I can would be unethical on my part.  I say that as I am referring to myself and my feeling.  To have her spayed at 7-8 and retire that bitch is the healthiest option, IN MY OPINION. There are so many younger awesome bitches to breed instead of breeding a 9 yr old bitch.
 
I WOULD NEVER BREED A BITCH OVER 7 Yrs old!  THATS MY OPINION!   More power to those who would!