Your thoughts on this pedigree please. - Page 3

  MACR:  LOVE your description or eval.....I am gonna steal that one for further use...OK?

Shepherd looks like they're trying to go to the bathroom 24-7, there's something wrong. Should be a nice slope, not a drop off. 


LoL
YR

Thanks ever so much for your comments, all of you. I see he point which you's are making. Would this be an example of the 'Roach' back that has been discussed elsewhere?

Best regards

Shaz- yes, that is the roachback. I feel bad saying unflattering things about others dogs, but it really is my opinion that breeding for that look, really is not in the best interest of the breed. It is good that you are asking questions,especially if you are going to consider breeding (which I don't know if you are or not). This database is an excellent souce of info for German Shepherds. My opinion is just that, MY opinio, but when you can go through a pedigree and examine so many facts about a particular dog, you increase your odds of eliminating many of the undesireable traits (although,obviously,some don't mind that roach back). It is very disturbing to read about all the health issues in German Shepherds these days. It looks more like alphabet soup some days when you see what others ask about, health issues, HD,ED,DM,EPI...and the list goes on. That girl you posted is a beautiful dog, would probably make an excellent companion, SAR, sch sport whatever you choose, but, like I said, that roach is NOT a trait I like seeing be bred into the GSD.. (do you mind my asking if she is your dog?)

The Dam may not be the most correct specimen I've ever seen but she's not  the worst either;  and I've seen much
more awful feet than that!

IMO we should be wary when people say they do not 'like' the backline, make NO acknowledgement of the effect
of the poor stack, and then launch into a list of unrelated health issues in the breed, all in the same breath.

Roached backs may be worse in some peoples eyes than in others, but they are not in themselves proven to be
unhealthy per se.
I really don't want to start the whole "roached versus straight" thing off again;  plenty such threads if you look back on here - go to Hot Topics for a shortcut to some, to save scrolling back page after page ...

Main thing to remember about "roaches" is they are NOT considered correct in the Breed Standard, for
the purposes of showing / working / breeding on with the dog;  but what is a technical  'roach' is not
always what 'we' see  in a curved topline , depending on our 'eye' for the breed.

I take it your are referring to me Hundmutter in your above post, and of course that is not the worst specimen. .My intention is not to IMPLY that at all. And as I am using the wi-fi on my cell phone, EVERYTHING I write comes off as a giant RUN-ON paragraph, my smart phone don't understand grammer. The poster was asking some questions that led me to believe they are very new to understanding the breed, and I was only trying to point out other areas of concern when choosing a pup. I DID emphasie MY OPINION of what I thought. Some pics can be attributed to poor stack, and some is that,"it is what it is",which is what I FEEL to be the case here. Roachback.khave you looked at dogs in the pedigree)It is very obvious that a good deal of breeders think that this look is acceptable. I DO NOT. There may not be any health related issues associated with the arch,curve, roach, I MYSELF find that look, not what one should be continued in the breed. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. As I stated, I am NO EXPERT, just trying to throw a little food for thought out there. I have seen too many heartbroken puppy people out there.

Deliberately not confining my remarks to you, kitkat, because no end of people do the same thing - not all of them by cellphone.
This becomes clear if you read through the various threads on this topic.
You are of course entitled to your opinion - but those who feel as I do about this issue find it hard not to get OUR view squashed.  Chillax.
I also noted that "IMO...";  and it is just as important to give someone new to the breed alternate perspectives, don't you agree  ?
As you say yourself, beauty IS in the eye of the beholder.  Let the newbies make up their own minds, with
all the information / facts /points of view, at their disposal.  Shaz may end up disagreeing with me, and agreeing with you, Marjorie, et al - but that's up to her.
"Heartbroken puppy people" ?  Because their pup grows up to have a more raised overline than someone
else's dog ?

Hundmutter-No,
"Heartbroken puppy people" ?  Because their pup grows up to have a more raised overline than someone
else's dog ?  That is NOT what I was referring to about heartbreak, The HD ,ED, EPI and all that other crap is what my reference was to.
    I tried to get some stacked pics of my dogs today, it did NOT work out for me. Here is a couple pics I did get, and THIS is what I, MYSELF like in a dog, I'm sure many think they are too straight backed, but this IS what I, MYSELF breed for
(please feel free to let me have it)



 

    Here is another dog I bred, yes, they probably should slope abit more. I guess another example of bad stack?

#1- there IS a possible neuro issue with the roach, and therefore, that  should NOT be overlooked. Health has to be right up there with everything else, when looking for a dog! Without health, you have nothing! I wish I had kept the URL of the articles, which were written by neurologists. Its early in the game, as roach backs didnt become trendy until about 10-15 yrs ago, so long term studies need to be done.

#2- yes, a stack can change the way a dog looks, but it doesnt change the length of the toes or the flatness of the feet. A dog cannnot possibly work for extended periods of time with flat feet. It will break down :(

#3- the length of a hock is the length of a hock. Its a finite measuerment. You cannot adjust the length of hock as the length of the bone is the length of the bone.

Hundmutter- its not a matter of "I've seen worse feet than that". Its a matter of breeding for features that will IMPROVE the breed, and not breeding on features which are not desireable :( We already  have enough of those! Put those feet/long toes together with her rear that just swoops to the ground, her roached back and look at what she has produced. She is not what would be an ideal dog with which to start a breeding program or even a desirable candidate.

--- >Topline-- The withers are higher than and sloping into the level back. The back is straight, very strongly developed without sag or roach

--->The topline flows from the set on of the neck, over the high long withers and over the straight
back to the slightly sloping croup without a noticeable break

(aka without breaking the line of the back with a roach) (if you put a yardstick from the withers to the
croup a roach would rise above it)  9aka- no roach breaking the line of the back) If you put a straight ruler along I croup, a roach would rise above it :( croup

Its not only MY opinion, but the opinion of the standard. I dont make up my own standard as I go along ;) So let it be written, so let it be said;)

Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry (a health registry for registered German Shepherds)
BE PROACTIVE!
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate  

kitkat- I also like to see a dog that is able to stand somewhat 4 square (legs actually being capable of being held under their body while standing straight up while still keeping a level back), give or take, when not being stacked or standing at attention. Extremes are just not natural,IMO ;) That better, Hundmutter?

Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry (a health registry for registered German Shepherds)
BE PROACTIVE!
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate