This is a placeholder text
Group text
by Blitzen on 31 January 2012 - 04:01
Gas x = simethicone.
by hexe on 31 January 2012 - 08:01
It's extremely unlikely that the spleen was torsed at the same time the stomach initially was, and was just missed; the dog wouldn't have survived a week's time with a torsed spleen, and it was a week after the first episode that the OP discovered Beau in crisis a second time which turned out to be the splenic torsion.
MezandBeau, when you check into simethicone products, make sure you DO NOT get anything that also contains xylitol --that's a sweetener product that's often used in human medications, but is quite toxic to dogs and must be avoided at all costs. Products that contain *sorbitol* are OK for dogs, as this sweetener is not harmful to them and can be given safely. How you administer the product will depend on which form the product comes in: here in the states, you can get simethicone products in chewable tablets (not the best choice for dogs), liquid (can be messy, but most dogs like the taste and will lap it up willingly), thin, paper-like 'strips' that dissolve almost instantly on the tongue (good for dogs that will not swallow pills readily and fight you if you try to pill them manually), and gels or 'pearls' which are very small gelatin capsules filled with the simethicone (these are my favorite because my dogs will take them like they were candy). Ideally, you don't want to *mix* the product with food, you'd just administer it *after* they've had a meal, so it can displace any air in the dog's stomach that might have been swallowed while he was eating. You can also give this anytime you observe any distension to the abdomen.
Another tip is to learn the acupressure point for relieving abdominal pressure. I'm a skeptic by nature, but I've used this on numerous occasions, and found that it DOES work IF the stomach or spleen hasn't already begun to twist...you'll hear the dog's gut sounds start up within a few minutes at most after stimulating this pressure point. This is not meant to replace getting the dog in to the vet ASAP--it is meant only as a first-aid measure that may be sufficient to relieve the abdominal distension before the dog enters torsion; it will have no effect if the dog's stomach or spleen has already twisted, but it takes only a few second's worth of time, and can be done while you're actually on the phone with the vet clinic if necessary. You can find information on the acupressure point here:
http://www.iwane.org/acp_point_v2.htm
or here (same info, different URL):
http://www.bluefrontiers.us/bloat_accupress.html
As for the role having him neutered @ 6 months of age played, frankly I presently find insufficient data to support any link between bloat and desexing prior to physical maturity. You mention that he likes to dunk his head and basically act the silly boy with his water bucket when it's hot, and you folks are in the midst of summer down there...so *that* may well be the explanation as to how he came to bloat at such a young age--water biting and air-swallowing while he's doing it. I'm trying to think of a way you could still provide him with a sufficient amount of water for a hot summer day while making it impossible for him to bucket-dive or bite at the water and swallow air while he's playing at it...perhaps you could get hold of a gravity-feed automatic waterer, with a fairly small, shallowish drinking bowl; that might work for this purpose.
Regarding the lack of 'doggie day care' in your area, would it be possible for the vet's office to provide something of that nature--at an extremely modest cost, or perhaps some sort of barter terms-- at least until some time has passed and you know whether this problem is going to resurface again quickly? Or perhaps the vet that's next door to where you work might be able to help out in that respect, if you handle exercising him mid-day and such?
If the spleen wasn't damaged in the second incident, then there would have been no reason for the vet to remove it, which is likely why it is still present--and the spleen does play an important role in the body's functions, so it's best to leave it there unless it's damaged or diseased.
As for the feed question, I must point out that dogs feed strictly canned food have bloated, as have dogs fed raw--it's the ingestion of air into the stomach that is the primary issue with bloating, and regardless of what the dog is fed, it is imperative to try and determine how and why the dog is swallowing air.
MezandBeau, when you check into simethicone products, make sure you DO NOT get anything that also contains xylitol --that's a sweetener product that's often used in human medications, but is quite toxic to dogs and must be avoided at all costs. Products that contain *sorbitol* are OK for dogs, as this sweetener is not harmful to them and can be given safely. How you administer the product will depend on which form the product comes in: here in the states, you can get simethicone products in chewable tablets (not the best choice for dogs), liquid (can be messy, but most dogs like the taste and will lap it up willingly), thin, paper-like 'strips' that dissolve almost instantly on the tongue (good for dogs that will not swallow pills readily and fight you if you try to pill them manually), and gels or 'pearls' which are very small gelatin capsules filled with the simethicone (these are my favorite because my dogs will take them like they were candy). Ideally, you don't want to *mix* the product with food, you'd just administer it *after* they've had a meal, so it can displace any air in the dog's stomach that might have been swallowed while he was eating. You can also give this anytime you observe any distension to the abdomen.
Another tip is to learn the acupressure point for relieving abdominal pressure. I'm a skeptic by nature, but I've used this on numerous occasions, and found that it DOES work IF the stomach or spleen hasn't already begun to twist...you'll hear the dog's gut sounds start up within a few minutes at most after stimulating this pressure point. This is not meant to replace getting the dog in to the vet ASAP--it is meant only as a first-aid measure that may be sufficient to relieve the abdominal distension before the dog enters torsion; it will have no effect if the dog's stomach or spleen has already twisted, but it takes only a few second's worth of time, and can be done while you're actually on the phone with the vet clinic if necessary. You can find information on the acupressure point here:
http://www.iwane.org/acp_point_v2.htm
or here (same info, different URL):
http://www.bluefrontiers.us/bloat_accupress.html
As for the role having him neutered @ 6 months of age played, frankly I presently find insufficient data to support any link between bloat and desexing prior to physical maturity. You mention that he likes to dunk his head and basically act the silly boy with his water bucket when it's hot, and you folks are in the midst of summer down there...so *that* may well be the explanation as to how he came to bloat at such a young age--water biting and air-swallowing while he's doing it. I'm trying to think of a way you could still provide him with a sufficient amount of water for a hot summer day while making it impossible for him to bucket-dive or bite at the water and swallow air while he's playing at it...perhaps you could get hold of a gravity-feed automatic waterer, with a fairly small, shallowish drinking bowl; that might work for this purpose.
Regarding the lack of 'doggie day care' in your area, would it be possible for the vet's office to provide something of that nature--at an extremely modest cost, or perhaps some sort of barter terms-- at least until some time has passed and you know whether this problem is going to resurface again quickly? Or perhaps the vet that's next door to where you work might be able to help out in that respect, if you handle exercising him mid-day and such?
If the spleen wasn't damaged in the second incident, then there would have been no reason for the vet to remove it, which is likely why it is still present--and the spleen does play an important role in the body's functions, so it's best to leave it there unless it's damaged or diseased.
As for the feed question, I must point out that dogs feed strictly canned food have bloated, as have dogs fed raw--it's the ingestion of air into the stomach that is the primary issue with bloating, and regardless of what the dog is fed, it is imperative to try and determine how and why the dog is swallowing air.
by hunger4justice on 31 January 2012 - 15:01
Hexe,
Do you just have the simethicone products on hand if you see dissention or are you saying as a prophylactic measure in a dog prone to boat you'd give it after meals? I hope I nor anyone else has this happen, but good to know.
Thanks for that other information too. At least one can feel that something can be tried while waiting for vet care.
Do you just have the simethicone products on hand if you see dissention or are you saying as a prophylactic measure in a dog prone to boat you'd give it after meals? I hope I nor anyone else has this happen, but good to know.
Thanks for that other information too. At least one can feel that something can be tried while waiting for vet care.
by Jenni78 on 31 January 2012 - 17:01
Hmmm...I didn't see where anyone said neutering caused bloating...I just mentioned neutering can cause the type build that is more likely to bloat- very narrow, deep chested, etc. GSDs already have that conformation to a degree- neutering that young can just alter the normal growth pattern and conformation and result in a dog who stays in that adolescent build for the duration of its life.
Hexe, good point about the simethicone. I was going to mention which products are ok and which are bad. I use the Phazyme- it has nothing else in it but a couple colorings, gelatin, and glycerin.
Hexe, good point about the simethicone. I was going to mention which products are ok and which are bad. I use the Phazyme- it has nothing else in it but a couple colorings, gelatin, and glycerin.
by Blitzen on 31 January 2012 - 17:01
Phazyme is what I keep on hand too.
by MezandBeau on 01 February 2012 - 00:02
Hexe thank you so much for such a comprehensive post. The acupuncture info is very helpful and I've already checked out the website links - that could be a real life saver for the initial bloat before bolting for the vet's surgery. I'll try and work on ways to stop the little bugga from dunking his head in his water bucket. I've been watching him very closely the past two weeks and I haven't yet seen any sign of air-swallowing at food time or even when he drinks - that said, it's currently bucketing down with rain so I don't think he needs to cool off! We haven't had our usual blistering hot summer up my way, very humid but only one day above 35 celcius so far.
Happy to report I've survived a Tuesday without a rush to the vet! His next 'planned' visit is Saturday to have his stitches out. I'm still a bit confused about the food issue but in the end I guess it'll be trial and error to a certain extent, with me spending a couple of hours closely monitoring him after every meal.
I was wondering whether barking with excitement could cause air gulping? Not full on bark bark bark bark, but that excited semi-yelp, semi-bark that they do when they really want attention or really want to go and do something. As he's getting his energy back post surgery he's been starting to jump up and yelp/bark when he sees the other dogs approaching (on leads), or when I'm walking away from him towards the other dogs. He can get quite animated!!! He was doing this a lot pre both bloat episodes as well (I'm trying to train him not to get so excited when I go to let the other dogs out for a run - Beau is generally always out as he's trustworthy, whereas the other two like to go visiting the neighbours....). It's probably a long bow to draw - I'm trying to think "outside the square".
by hexe on 01 February 2012 - 07:02
Jenni, I made reference to the lack of any data linking bloat and desexing before maturity just so it was clear to the OP that Beau bloating @ 9 months isn't a result of his having been desexed 3 months earlier, that's all--while the pre-maturity neutering may well alter his phenotype as he continues in his development, I think we'd all agree that he didn't have a radical, hormone-related growth event a mere 3 months after that surgery, thus his *present* build is unlikely to be any different than it would have been if he were still intact.
hunger, how the simethicone is used depends somewhat on the individual dog. If the dog is a food-gulper, thus swallowing air along with the meal, but has never bloated, I tend not to give the anti-gas product unless I see pre-bloating actions (carpet- or floor-licking, rather insistent grass-eating, seeking out and eating hair that lodges in the corners of rooms...that sort of thing)--as long as I'm going to be home, and be able to keep the dog under direct observation. If I know I can't watch the dog, or I have to leave, then I'd give the anti-gas product after the meal, so I can get the air displaced quickly and have less worry. With a dog that HAS bloated, I see no reason not to give the product after each meal, because it's not going to do any harm if it's not needed...the worst that could happen is the dog *might* have a slightly softer stool the next time they empty their bowels.
I, too, like the Phazyme softgels, because they don't contain any additional medications--just the simethicone. I also like that they don't have any taste to them, and they slide down the dog's throat nice and slick, even if you find you have to manually pill the dog with them.
A big point to keep in mind is this: Most dogs bloat on an EMPTY stomach, and it's typically several hours after they'd last eaten a meal. So don't be fooled into thinking you can relax your guard because it's been hours since the last meal, and the dog has been lying in the house quietly since then--especially with senior dogs, this seems to be precisely when they'll start showing signs of discomfort...
Another thing to remember: because of the dog's anatomy, you won't always see the first evidence of distension in what we generally consider to be the 'belly' or abdominal area (the area that lies in-between the last rib and the hips); a dog's stomach sits partially in the lower end of the rib-cage, so be sure you also keep a close eye on the dog's rib-cage, and if you so much as *suspect* that the ribs look more 'sprung', get your hands on the dog and assess whether it feels tighter than usual; place your ear against the dog's loin or underbelly and listen for the rumbling, grumbling and growling of normal gut sounds. If the ribcage feels tight or looks expanded, or you don't hear any gut sounds, at the very *least* give the dog a dose of the simethicone (for suspected bloat, give double the label's stated human adult dose; this may vary by brand), and employ the acupressure point for releasing abdominal pressure. Likewise, even if you don't see distension of the stomach in the loin area, if you gently feel the dog's belly in that area and it's hard and unyielding to any degree, make use of the acupressure point and the simethicone product. In any of these instances, if within a few minutes of the simethicone and acupressure you don't observe a relaxing of the rib-cage or abdomen, if you don't hear normal gut sounds , and/or you don't get a softening and relaxing of the belly, do not delay in getting the dog to the vet's office.
The findings of this study might be of some interest--a weak correlation between instances of bloat plus torsion (gastric dilatation and volvulus, or GDV) and higher minimum barometric pressure over a two day period, or with large hourly drops in temperature: http://www.stat.purdue.edu/~mlevins/Articles/GDV_biometeor.pdf
MezandBeau, it's certainly possible that Beau's excitement when he sees the other dogs, and the accompanying vocalizations he makes, could include some swallowing of air--I know my big rescue male gulps air when he's pitching a fit about wanting to be out in the yard before he's sat quietly at the door and waited to be given permission to exit, so Beau may be doing the same sort of thing. You clearly are staying on top of this keenly, so Beau's in good hands with you. I'm glad you got through this Tuesday without any more emergency visits to the vet, too!
hunger, how the simethicone is used depends somewhat on the individual dog. If the dog is a food-gulper, thus swallowing air along with the meal, but has never bloated, I tend not to give the anti-gas product unless I see pre-bloating actions (carpet- or floor-licking, rather insistent grass-eating, seeking out and eating hair that lodges in the corners of rooms...that sort of thing)--as long as I'm going to be home, and be able to keep the dog under direct observation. If I know I can't watch the dog, or I have to leave, then I'd give the anti-gas product after the meal, so I can get the air displaced quickly and have less worry. With a dog that HAS bloated, I see no reason not to give the product after each meal, because it's not going to do any harm if it's not needed...the worst that could happen is the dog *might* have a slightly softer stool the next time they empty their bowels.
I, too, like the Phazyme softgels, because they don't contain any additional medications--just the simethicone. I also like that they don't have any taste to them, and they slide down the dog's throat nice and slick, even if you find you have to manually pill the dog with them.
A big point to keep in mind is this: Most dogs bloat on an EMPTY stomach, and it's typically several hours after they'd last eaten a meal. So don't be fooled into thinking you can relax your guard because it's been hours since the last meal, and the dog has been lying in the house quietly since then--especially with senior dogs, this seems to be precisely when they'll start showing signs of discomfort...
Another thing to remember: because of the dog's anatomy, you won't always see the first evidence of distension in what we generally consider to be the 'belly' or abdominal area (the area that lies in-between the last rib and the hips); a dog's stomach sits partially in the lower end of the rib-cage, so be sure you also keep a close eye on the dog's rib-cage, and if you so much as *suspect* that the ribs look more 'sprung', get your hands on the dog and assess whether it feels tighter than usual; place your ear against the dog's loin or underbelly and listen for the rumbling, grumbling and growling of normal gut sounds. If the ribcage feels tight or looks expanded, or you don't hear any gut sounds, at the very *least* give the dog a dose of the simethicone (for suspected bloat, give double the label's stated human adult dose; this may vary by brand), and employ the acupressure point for releasing abdominal pressure. Likewise, even if you don't see distension of the stomach in the loin area, if you gently feel the dog's belly in that area and it's hard and unyielding to any degree, make use of the acupressure point and the simethicone product. In any of these instances, if within a few minutes of the simethicone and acupressure you don't observe a relaxing of the rib-cage or abdomen, if you don't hear normal gut sounds , and/or you don't get a softening and relaxing of the belly, do not delay in getting the dog to the vet's office.
The findings of this study might be of some interest--a weak correlation between instances of bloat plus torsion (gastric dilatation and volvulus, or GDV) and higher minimum barometric pressure over a two day period, or with large hourly drops in temperature: http://www.stat.purdue.edu/~mlevins/Articles/GDV_biometeor.pdf
MezandBeau, it's certainly possible that Beau's excitement when he sees the other dogs, and the accompanying vocalizations he makes, could include some swallowing of air--I know my big rescue male gulps air when he's pitching a fit about wanting to be out in the yard before he's sat quietly at the door and waited to be given permission to exit, so Beau may be doing the same sort of thing. You clearly are staying on top of this keenly, so Beau's in good hands with you. I'm glad you got through this Tuesday without any more emergency visits to the vet, too!
by Jenni78 on 01 February 2012 - 15:02
Cool, Hexe. I just wanted to make sure no one had come up with some bizarre cause and effect to do with the neutering that I hadn't intended. Since I first mentioned the neuter, I wanted to clarify that I only meant that eventually, when growth is complete, his conformation is likely to be slightly slanted even more toward the type that "tends" to bloat. You are of course correct- 3 mos. in a dog that young is unlikely to make a big difference; he is too young for his chest to have filled out anyway.
I also want to reiterate what Hexe said about an empty stomach- many dogs bloat in the middle of the night. I do think it's wise to try and eliminate gas since it can last far longer than there is food in the stomach. Some foods tend to really expand in water and make lots of bubbles while doing so; I have wondered if these would be more likely to produce the same effect in the stomach than the foods that expand but make the layer of bubbles on top....? Anyone ever done that? I always test foods in water before feeding and though water isn't stomach acid ...it's easier to come by! ;-)
I also want to reiterate what Hexe said about an empty stomach- many dogs bloat in the middle of the night. I do think it's wise to try and eliminate gas since it can last far longer than there is food in the stomach. Some foods tend to really expand in water and make lots of bubbles while doing so; I have wondered if these would be more likely to produce the same effect in the stomach than the foods that expand but make the layer of bubbles on top....? Anyone ever done that? I always test foods in water before feeding and though water isn't stomach acid ...it's easier to come by! ;-)
Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top