Litter due - suspect lines? - Page 3

GSD John, I am in no way saying you were wrong or did anything wrong.  Many people start in the breed with a BYB type dog, then they learn after the fact.  It doesnt mean you should love the dog any less.  It is obvious you loved your Megan and did everything right by her!  And I also do think that any health problem SHOULD be made public.  By owners and/or breeders.

And I am sorry that you lost your girl and had to go through this with her :(  I am sure it was very heartbreaking! 

I am not familiar with your situation or this breeder other than what is posted on this thread.  Was Megan the only puppy produced with epilepsy?  And everyone thinks that the parents should not be bred again (even to other dogs?) because of one situation? 

IMO if a litter produced ONE dog with a disease (the other littermates healthy), I do not necessarily think neither parent should never be bred again.  I may not repeat the breeding of the same parents together, but if the mother is bred to a different male the results may be very different.  If we threw every dog out of the gene pool who has a relative with a health issue or who produced one puppy with a health issue we would have no more dogs to breed! 

Now if there are several puppies being produced with epilepsy by the same dog, that is different.  And obviously the breeder should be honest about what is produced and not hide the fact.  And of course a dog WITH epilepsy should never be bred! 

As with other complex, possibly polygenic disorders in which the genetic basis is not clearly understood, the best current advice is to try and decrease the incidence of this condition by undertaking depth and breadth pedigree analysis (that is, checking for records of incidence of the disease in ancestors and relatives) prior to breeding (Patterson 2007, Bell 2010) and breeding only from individuals with the most healthy pedigree analysis. As Bell (2010) suggested: “individuals whose siblings are normal, and whose parents' siblings are normal have the greatest chance of carrying a low genetic load for the condition”. Patterson (2007) recommended that no individuals with affected ancestors should be bred from, nor those with more than 25% of siblings affected. He also recommended that individuals should be at least 5 years of age before being used for breeding so that it is unlikely they are affected by IE themselves.

Bell JS (2010) Genetic Testing and Genetic Counseling in Pet and Breeding Dogs. World Small Animal Veterinary Association World Congress Proceedings 

Patterson E (2007) Clinical Characteristics and Inheritance of Idiopathic Epilepsy. Tufts' Canine and Feline Breeding and Genetics Conference, 2007. Available from - VIN. Associate 

 

Abby, ok so what if we wipe out all dogs who have ANY history of epilepsy in the pedigree.... then should we also wipe out all dogs who have ANY history of hip dysplaisa in the pedigree?  what about elbow dysplasia? What about cancer? bloat? allergies? PF? pannus? where do we stop?  Ooops, now we have no dogs to breed!  I agree epilepsy is high on that list, but if you talk to people who have watched dogs suffer from cancer, I bet they put cancer up there too, same with people who had dogs with UAP/ED, dogs who had horrible allergies and lived miserable lives

I am NOT talking about these dogs in particular, as I already said I dont think they should be bred anyways based on the pedigree alone.

But in general, we need to do our best to breed away from health issues... Dont get me wrong, I am not saying we should breed a dog who has epilepsy!  or a dog who has health issues.  I am just saying if a dog is bred and produces ONE puppy out of a litter of 8 with a health issue, I do not necessarily agree that this dog should immediately be removed from the gene pool.  IMO there are a lot of other things to consider too! 

What if that dog produces 1 affected progeny in several litters would you still state not to remove ?, if there are affected how many are carriers! how many owners of progeny in that/or other litters have not informed the breeder of problems due to fear of backlash or being blamed.

If pedigree analysis is comprehensive across the breed, “breeding values” can be assigned, allowing comparison of the genetic merit of individuals within the breed. Assigning and using breeding values in this way has decreased the incidence of IE in the Belgian Tervuren breed

I can not understand why in a country as large as the US have only 31 GSDs had their DNA sent to researchers for genetic research into epilepsy, out of those 31, 16 were affected
Why such a small amount? do people not want to protect the breeds future.

Ostrich syndrome!

GSD 2727 As you have already mentioned you do not know these lines or our situation with our dog Megan. Nobody has suggested cutting All lines that have problems, but, when you have an individual line and you are able to trace that Epilepsy is coming down that line, that is the specific lines that needs to be cut otherwise the  problem of Epilepsy will keep reoccurring, (Our Megan ) when an Epileptic dog is produced  Both lines carry the problem. The problem that you do not know about and therefore have missed the point is that over here in the UK lines have been used and doubled up on by Breeders who knew they had a problem. That in this particular pedigree there are  known Producers and other matings where these dogs are present in the lines have also went on to produce Epilepsy.  Had our breeder and indeed many others that had or have produced a health issue been open and HONEST about it,they could prevent suspect lines being used by breeders "who do not know" about any problems existing, it is ALL about the dogs not ego's or trashing dogs as we have been accused of, we have to do something different or as you say there will be NO dogs left to breed with.  Regarding Other health issues of course there are many to worry about and the Pet Owner who is watching his/her dog suffer with a particular illness will  find it very distressing and will fight to prevent other dogs suffering the way their dog has, we are no different, had our dog suffered and died with one of these other terrible health issues and was Known to be in the lines we would do exactly what we have done regarding Epilepsy. Over here in the UK there are many Longcoat GSD Breeders who have taken on board this situation and made adjustments to their lines, therefore protecting the future of their Breeding, unfortunately there are some that  continue to use these lines or lines that are known to produce Epilepsy, why??? because they can.
    Continuing to bury your head and problems in the sand will only insure that there will be no clear lines for the future.
What has happened cannot be undone but that does not mean we should accept the status quo as a normal and unpleasant part of the breed, there are things we can do, which have been mentioned above.
As pet owners we take these tests very seriously and have participated in many research programmes. doing nothing when one isolated pup is produced with a health issue is what has us in a situation today where "there is not a line today that will not have a problem dog somewhere in the line".
Margaret

Margaret, I totally agree about one of the problems being that people are not honest about it.  And that is sad that others have suffered because some hid the problem.  I also agree if a health problem keeps reoccuring with one line, then something needs to be done! 

I think we are more in agreement than disagreement.  Again, I am sorry that you have had to go through this with your dog Megan :( 

Can you tell me, is there a test for epilepsy?  Like for breeding animals?  Also, being that I am not real familiar with it, can you point me towards any information that tells how it is inherited?  Always interested in learning. 
Thanks for your info! 
Valerie

Valerie
The mode of inheritance in the GSD is not currently known, there is no test for the GSD
Researchers require more dNA from not only affected dogs but sibblings etc and of none affected dogs over the age of 7 years, plus funding.

as you are in the US please contribute at least DNA from your GSDs
http://www.canine-epilepsy.net/cerc.html

Wildmoor, I will read the link closer later when I have more time but just quickly scanning it, I only seen where they are looking for DNA from dogs who have had seizures as well as their relatives (both normal and seizures).  Since I do not have any dogs who have this issue (or any relatives that I know of), it doesnt look like I can contribute.

But I will check out the page further.  Thanks for the info!

Valerie