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by darylehret on 06 August 2011 - 05:08
In an absolute sense: inbreeding is the mating of two individuals that carry any identical alleles. If Horand Grafrath were alive today, to breed with any german shepherd, that would be considered inbreeding. But that's not what most people think of as inbreeding. Any geman shepherd bred to any other german shepherd is going to carry at least some identical alleles, even after dozens of distinctly separated generations.
In a relative sense: inbreeding is the mating of two individuals in a given population at a rate more expected than random. Two paired individuals sharing a common relative more than the average COI for the entire breed, would still be considered inbreeding. That might, for example, mean a common relative in the 5th generation, maybe the 7th or 9th. I don't rightly know (or care).
If Fido was bred to another dog that also had Fido in it's pedigree, is that inbreeding, or linebreeding? A sire-to-daughter breeding, for example, would be what? Some would say that's what linebreeding truly is. Others think that linebreeding is loose-inbreeding.
Even among researchers, the definition of inbreeding is subjective as to what amount constitutes such. Researchers rarely if ever use the term "linebreeding".
Among german shepherd breeders, many would agree that a common ancestor within 5 generations is considered linebreeding, and inbreeding is linebreeding that is closer than normally allowed by the parent organization, the German SV, which is a 1-2 or a 2-1 linebreeding, although a 2-2 is sometimes permitted. But, wouldn't a 6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6-6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6 be of high enough COI to be considered inbred? That's 50% genetics from the same ancestor, so I would think so.
As long as you truly understand the interactions of genetics that are taking place, it really doesn't matter what you want to call it.
In a relative sense: inbreeding is the mating of two individuals in a given population at a rate more expected than random. Two paired individuals sharing a common relative more than the average COI for the entire breed, would still be considered inbreeding. That might, for example, mean a common relative in the 5th generation, maybe the 7th or 9th. I don't rightly know (or care).
If Fido was bred to another dog that also had Fido in it's pedigree, is that inbreeding, or linebreeding? A sire-to-daughter breeding, for example, would be what? Some would say that's what linebreeding truly is. Others think that linebreeding is loose-inbreeding.
Even among researchers, the definition of inbreeding is subjective as to what amount constitutes such. Researchers rarely if ever use the term "linebreeding".
Among german shepherd breeders, many would agree that a common ancestor within 5 generations is considered linebreeding, and inbreeding is linebreeding that is closer than normally allowed by the parent organization, the German SV, which is a 1-2 or a 2-1 linebreeding, although a 2-2 is sometimes permitted. But, wouldn't a 6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6-6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6 be of high enough COI to be considered inbred? That's 50% genetics from the same ancestor, so I would think so.
As long as you truly understand the interactions of genetics that are taking place, it really doesn't matter what you want to call it.
by Donnerstorm on 06 August 2011 - 11:08
Thanks Daryl, that was where my hang up was coming in at while reading. I was having a hard time understanding why there were different terms because line breeding appeared to me to be inbreeding. I kept looking trying to find a distinction at first I thought surely it meant that "relatives" were further apart, but then I would run across an example like you gave of sire to daughter and the book would classify that as "line breeding" and you don't get much more closely related than father/daughter. The same authors that classified the previous example as "line breeding" would then give the example of brother and sister (same sire different dam) as "inbreeding". I'm a nurse and prior to becoming a nurse I had 2 yrs of college as a biology/chemistry major so I did take genetics class for humans and have a fairly good grasp but unless you live in a few not so select states or geographic areas we don't cover "inbreeding" it is rather frowned upon. ;). Is there a reason that the books seem to frown on the 2nd example and classify it as inbreeding while the first is "line"? Most of the books seem to follow the school of thought that "line breeding" is a good thing, while "inbreeding" always seems to have a cautionary label on it (especially since they appear to be the same thing)? BTW thank you everyone for allowing me to "pick your brains". My shelves have become full of books on the subjects but sometimes your best resource are those that have experience and practical applications of what you are trying to learn. Thanks again!
by darylehret on 06 August 2011 - 12:08
Well, I don't truly have any real practical experience in this. Yet. My tightest linebreeding so far has been a 4-5 on "A" / 4-4,4 on "B". But I have owned tighter linebred dogs from other breedings like a 2-2 or 3-2.
Many people in this breed have an irrational stigma against inbreeding practices.
I presume that the "other" definition of linebreeding means that, the dog doing the breeding is also a dog in the other's pedigree. There is a direct line to itself.
Many people in this breed have an irrational stigma against inbreeding practices.
I presume that the "other" definition of linebreeding means that, the dog doing the breeding is also a dog in the other's pedigree. There is a direct line to itself.
by Donnerstorm on 06 August 2011 - 12:08
Very good way of putting that, and one that is easily remembered! If you don't mind me asking are you of the school of thought that line breeding is a good thing or bad thing? It appears to me if you are going to breed and you have any intentions or hopes of truly creating anything that is is "yours" with which to leave a mark on the breed, you would have to at a certain point do the majority of your matings line bred, with the occasional out crossing to bring in a quality you are lacking, but if that is the case at what point are your pairings becoming to tightly line bred?
by darylehret on 06 August 2011 - 15:08
I'm of the school of thought that linebreeding is a valuable tool that helps reduce leaving things to chance, empowering the breeder with the benefit of improving consistency. I'm neither for nor against, but I do tend to get after others who proclaim it's all bad. Neither "good" or "bad" in itself, you just have to understand what it does to take advantage of it, and to avoid it's negative consequences. I don't think any pairing is "too" tightly inbred, in order to avoid some arbitrary number of COI, it all depends on the breeding pair. I plan myself to do a sire-daughter breeding when I eventually find it convenient to do so.
Darwin himself once proclaimed that nature abhors inbreeding, but Darwin has been proven wrong on some points in his theories. Science is actually now claiming that self-reproductive organisms actually increase genetic diversity at a faster rate than sexually reproductive species. And there's still no solid foundation of proof that genetic diversity is always beneficial. If 90% of the allelic compliment of a population is detrimonious, I'd rather be breeding with the restrictive 10% that's more beneficially healthy.
Darwin himself once proclaimed that nature abhors inbreeding, but Darwin has been proven wrong on some points in his theories. Science is actually now claiming that self-reproductive organisms actually increase genetic diversity at a faster rate than sexually reproductive species. And there's still no solid foundation of proof that genetic diversity is always beneficial. If 90% of the allelic compliment of a population is detrimonious, I'd rather be breeding with the restrictive 10% that's more beneficially healthy.
by GSDPACK on 06 August 2011 - 17:08
I use this database to pair two dogs, so I have the pedigree on one piece of paper. After that I go into Czech database (my friends who can get to the database by going there and pulling info, or to trials to see the dogs) and ask results from breed surveys, hips elbows and progeny and research and research and research.
This web site is full of opinions. I like facts. Nobody is going to talk shit about their dogs, comments are mostky made on looks and everybody has potentially the best dog ever. I cant believe everything everybody says.
I talk to people who are very blunt about the dogs they know, not just heard about and kinda have an opinion based on reading a book and internet. Hands on is the only way to go, hands on, gained experience and learning from the mistakes we all make.
PDB and videos are only to give me something tangible, the rest is work of facts put together and analyzing the potential results. Sounds fun?
Sucks when I cant do it the way I used to in Czech and Slovakia. I have to ask my friends to help me out. However they too have opinions, if they can back it up with results, notes of facts are made.
This web site is full of opinions. I like facts. Nobody is going to talk shit about their dogs, comments are mostky made on looks and everybody has potentially the best dog ever. I cant believe everything everybody says.
I talk to people who are very blunt about the dogs they know, not just heard about and kinda have an opinion based on reading a book and internet. Hands on is the only way to go, hands on, gained experience and learning from the mistakes we all make.
PDB and videos are only to give me something tangible, the rest is work of facts put together and analyzing the potential results. Sounds fun?
Sucks when I cant do it the way I used to in Czech and Slovakia. I have to ask my friends to help me out. However they too have opinions, if they can back it up with results, notes of facts are made.
by yellowrose of Texas on 06 August 2011 - 17:08
Well, Donnerstorm, from a long time, owner /breeder and trainer of this breed, I started with my first female out of
Cadett v Busecker Schlos and Zilla v Weiherturchen
her name is Tripl H ZuZu v Tejas
I was fortunate to get both pedigrees from sire and dam in German ..Have both sides and a read out of what they mean from the Trainer in Shreveport LA>
Larry Filo of SteinigTal was then the one who I went to for info to explain . HE owned the Dam and imported the dogs for my start.
I purchased a male out of a chech import dog who also was from SteinigTall ./FLussTal
I got involved with Schutzhund in Katy, Spring Valley Schutz club...ok that doesnt tell you anything about a pedigree...but it sparked me to read the Schutzhund Magazine...In it I saw ads for kennels with great names and titles...so that being said....I began to ask questions...what doe they mean...then someone said MY Dog has 74 titles of V ratings ...what??
SO I laid my pedigrees out on table and I started counting....wow
I put a b title on one and then I did my OFA and then I began to read more and study more...I got to visit with two German Judges at our club events who sat down one night and went thru my pedigree above and told me lots of interesting facts. of which only half stuck in my brain. BUT IT sparked questions...
SO then cam the next step...after I began to breed my litters, and the LEO in area got involved with my training also...I was priviledged to purchase a grandson male out of Greg MOMINEE's pride and Joy of achievement Orthos v Tiekerhook, Gator a product from Orthos and Anika v Furstenburg...At that time I didn't even know Greg was even still alive..BUT I went to work studying about the TIEKERHOOK lines.. I ask and talked to men who worked the dogs of these and then I bred Gator to my first bitch with hopes of furthering the work ethics.
I ask a million questions of Jane Steffenhagen , now deceased as I purchasd then a stud, out of Pirol v Enclavehof, and a Jada v SteffenHAUS breeding...SO now I have to learn why this was done..I spend hours bothering JANE and she helped me ..
put two more pedigrees on a big table ,,,enlarged them and started looking for things that I could learn... ALL I can say , is.,, days , months, and years of those 4 pedigrees on a big table to go to , and re look everytime I read the Schutzhund magazine and saw a pedigree I had in mine,,,,, sparked me to ask ,...seek more and watch all dogs pedigrees..I counted the V dogs in my pedigree, I counted the BSP dogs in my pedigrees, I learned who Greif z Lahntal was, I ask questions about big named dogs in my pedigrees and what the letters stood for, and I ask many mentors I was fortunate to have , what does this mean and why does it say this on the KOR. report. I didn't know much about Kors until I got a female our of NAX v Bullinger and I called Russel Osbourne on phone and bothered him . HE was great for facts.
At this point, I came to this Database, and became so involved daily , watching all the posts and when a dog was mentioned and the linebreeding words were used and discussed , I was glued to those threads. WHEN hereitary traits were mentioned , I had purchased a MAle, Bear Jerome, who was out of Kanto vd Monteforthalle, a URAN v WildsteigerLand son...Immediately I saw some bad reports of some traits I didnt want...so I had to search 2 more pedigrees on my now a wall ..The table got too small...I put them on a wall to see ..I learned about herding titles, what lines give that trait best, and I learned about close line breeding and why, by looking at my pedigrees and making my own charts of commonality..
I read, read read and ask millions of questions and read so many thre
by yellowrose of Texas on 06 August 2011 - 17:08
con'td
thread about the traits that I did not want to breed into..I was concerned about the BLUE gene and the LIVER gene that Uran has behind him and the Steffenhaus also.
I ask questions and I also bought a new girl who had ORthos in her 4th generation and NICK v LascherHaus in her 3rd. SHE is all black so I now have something new to study in the pedigrees.
My next question was BLACK plus what = what....so you again go search for commonalitys. I watched all the threads on this base for anwers and it got deep ..
Then I bought a male who had a common denominator of the ARMINIUS lines and that is REX>
I had to lay out now about 12 pedigrees to start studying. OVER and OVER you do the same and you see many new things to count and ask why , where and how about..
I was fortunate to acquire the pedigrees of all my dogs in the COUNTRY language they came from so this was a learning point...then I met a man who had been to Germany many times, studied, titled and lived among some of the name dogs and handled them like FREI V D GUIGGI...and others ..I learned about these dogs..in my pedigrees from him...
HE showed me names and interpreted titles and words in the KORS>..and then I got help from Germelhaus here in Texas and was sent pages and photos of some of the big named titled dogs in the arminius pedigree like Timo de la Serena..I had in my hands pages of info supplied by BREEDERS of some of these dogs, and trainers who trained them...so I had to study and ask questions ...this was ongoing..but I went to the wall every day when I did this and marked with a certain color the dogs all common to each pedigree. FOR example Purple was TIEKERHOOK , green was Busecker Schloss, PINK was Arminius...etc...
I contined to ask questions of men here in east Texas I became involved with in training...I also read many Schutzhund books.
Hope this helps you, Donnerstorm, from a Ladies point of view how I did it..
Start by counting all the Va's, the V, the SG and then go thru and count the SCHH 1, how many and then the SchH2, how many , and then count all the SCHH 3, then go thru and count the FH...then other titles...you see...some may not have but one title..then count OFA OR sv hips...this teaches you to recognize immediately what is on a pedigree. Also I began to recognize pictures of the dog I produced, heads , body stucture of those on other peoples pedigrees that had my same dogs in them so you start the structure game then...It is never ending..
that is how I did it..
BEING I was green back in 1985...lol
YR
thread about the traits that I did not want to breed into..I was concerned about the BLUE gene and the LIVER gene that Uran has behind him and the Steffenhaus also.
I ask questions and I also bought a new girl who had ORthos in her 4th generation and NICK v LascherHaus in her 3rd. SHE is all black so I now have something new to study in the pedigrees.
My next question was BLACK plus what = what....so you again go search for commonalitys. I watched all the threads on this base for anwers and it got deep ..
Then I bought a male who had a common denominator of the ARMINIUS lines and that is REX>
I had to lay out now about 12 pedigrees to start studying. OVER and OVER you do the same and you see many new things to count and ask why , where and how about..
I was fortunate to acquire the pedigrees of all my dogs in the COUNTRY language they came from so this was a learning point...then I met a man who had been to Germany many times, studied, titled and lived among some of the name dogs and handled them like FREI V D GUIGGI...and others ..I learned about these dogs..in my pedigrees from him...
HE showed me names and interpreted titles and words in the KORS>..and then I got help from Germelhaus here in Texas and was sent pages and photos of some of the big named titled dogs in the arminius pedigree like Timo de la Serena..I had in my hands pages of info supplied by BREEDERS of some of these dogs, and trainers who trained them...so I had to study and ask questions ...this was ongoing..but I went to the wall every day when I did this and marked with a certain color the dogs all common to each pedigree. FOR example Purple was TIEKERHOOK , green was Busecker Schloss, PINK was Arminius...etc...
I contined to ask questions of men here in east Texas I became involved with in training...I also read many Schutzhund books.
Hope this helps you, Donnerstorm, from a Ladies point of view how I did it..
Start by counting all the Va's, the V, the SG and then go thru and count the SCHH 1, how many and then the SchH2, how many , and then count all the SCHH 3, then go thru and count the FH...then other titles...you see...some may not have but one title..then count OFA OR sv hips...this teaches you to recognize immediately what is on a pedigree. Also I began to recognize pictures of the dog I produced, heads , body stucture of those on other peoples pedigrees that had my same dogs in them so you start the structure game then...It is never ending..
that is how I did it..
BEING I was green back in 1985...lol
YR
by Donnerstorm on 08 August 2011 - 18:08
Thanks YR. That is exactly my issue, and has always been my issue when I am learning something Every answer sparks another question. That unfortunately used to drive my teachers in school nuts! I didn't want to accept the answer "we will cover that next year or in the next chapter" I wanted to know now! And I am very fortunate to say my children are the same way! You mentioned the Arminius lines several times, I have heard them mentioned a few times before, what was it you liked about that line. The idea of putting the pedigrees on the wall was great thanks soo much! I bought my male 5 yrs ago and then about 4 months ago I bought a bitch completely on the other side of the country. When I bought my male I wasn't worried about pedigrees to be honest had never really heard of them I bought him because I liked his "looks" and he definitely had the drive and personality to do the work I wanted. I did the same with the female the new female. My husband couldn't get over how much they looked alike and how very much they acted just alike, I pulled out their pedigrees and they had several ancestors in common. that would explain the similarities between the two, my husband was amazed that I bought them so far apart geographically and time wise but they had so much in common. So apparently I like those bloodlines that they have in common. I have not researched the Arminius lines yet. I'm at the moment having people not tell me anything about their dog, letting me research the pedigree and the dogs in it to see if I can come up with some accurate observations from that info on traits, drive, behaviors etc that the dog has, then I have them tell me if I am at all accurate, and evaluate the info I gave them so they can tell me if I was right, and where I was wrong and what I missed. I love to read, and research but I'm also a hands on learner and I figure I should try and learn to use a pedigree for what is meant for. It's so amazing that there is that much information in those pedigrees. To just glance they seem very simple (if you don't know better). Judron I would be interested in the other list too, would you be nice enough to share?? I do believe I am going to start another thread to get peoples opinions on line breeding vs outcrossing. Would just be interesting to see what everybody thinks.
by yellowrose of Texas on 08 August 2011 - 20:08
Donnerstorm
Remember the REX thread that appeared here a few weeks back by the person who took him into her home..
THAT male is out of ARMINIUS
see if I can link the threads with his pictures and his pedigree...
ANd the reason I bought him for...
I did it for an experiment of putting a softer dog, if I can use those terms, and only I know what I feel, but being I am working line and hard drive dogs line person, it means I had such high drive dogs for placing dogs in homes, REX presented to me the opportunity to put beauty and softer work drive into what I termed over the Chart for people , that do not want a dog that is all about work, work and work..
REX has no drive to work at anything..he wants to be pretty, handsome and play ..with you...only or a ball .
HE has no high ball drive or food drive. But I overcome that with my working lines I am breeding him to.
BUT i mixed him into the females out of Cadett v BuseckerSchloss and my Orthos son, and BEAR the URAN v WILDSTEIGERLAND grson and produced some georgeous , good drives and good food drive pups with very dark pigmentation..OF course , I had 4 other bloodlines of high drive working dogs included.
THis is just an opinion from me along on one dog REX>.
NOW I had the NAX v Bullinger female daughter who was also not too high driven..SHE was the very dark pigmentation and of good temperament so I used her only one time bred to my PIROL v Enclavehof male with Steffen Haus on dam side and got this dog...as pictured below:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=392522 Nax out of Arminius....
Vasha v Fleischerheim is dam of ASTA who Ki is out of...
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=395716
put those two pedigrees out on paper and go look for commonality and see what you find/
Now I added the son of Pirol v Enclavehof/SteffenHaus who have more commonality with Vasha....http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=536756
Picture is not of Dieter and I cannot get it to upload a new picture.....
looks, beauty , structure, large head and great temperament , good family dog with good protection quality but not overly agressive and not overly high prey drive..Very intelligent and good health ethics.
Fleischerheim was the dam side of THE NAX daughter...
I only bred her one time...she was a coat but threw no coat pups
Remember the REX thread that appeared here a few weeks back by the person who took him into her home..
THAT male is out of ARMINIUS
see if I can link the threads with his pictures and his pedigree...
ANd the reason I bought him for...
I did it for an experiment of putting a softer dog, if I can use those terms, and only I know what I feel, but being I am working line and hard drive dogs line person, it means I had such high drive dogs for placing dogs in homes, REX presented to me the opportunity to put beauty and softer work drive into what I termed over the Chart for people , that do not want a dog that is all about work, work and work..
REX has no drive to work at anything..he wants to be pretty, handsome and play ..with you...only or a ball .
HE has no high ball drive or food drive. But I overcome that with my working lines I am breeding him to.
BUT i mixed him into the females out of Cadett v BuseckerSchloss and my Orthos son, and BEAR the URAN v WILDSTEIGERLAND grson and produced some georgeous , good drives and good food drive pups with very dark pigmentation..OF course , I had 4 other bloodlines of high drive working dogs included.
THis is just an opinion from me along on one dog REX>.
NOW I had the NAX v Bullinger female daughter who was also not too high driven..SHE was the very dark pigmentation and of good temperament so I used her only one time bred to my PIROL v Enclavehof male with Steffen Haus on dam side and got this dog...as pictured below:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=392522 Nax out of Arminius....
Vasha v Fleischerheim is dam of ASTA who Ki is out of...
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=395716
put those two pedigrees out on paper and go look for commonality and see what you find/
Now I added the son of Pirol v Enclavehof/SteffenHaus who have more commonality with Vasha....http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=536756
Picture is not of Dieter and I cannot get it to upload a new picture.....
looks, beauty , structure, large head and great temperament , good family dog with good protection quality but not overly agressive and not overly high prey drive..Very intelligent and good health ethics.
Fleischerheim was the dam side of THE NAX daughter...
I only bred her one time...she was a coat but threw no coat pups
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