Breeding without titles... open discussion, not an argument - Page 3

Is there a level of SCH 3 that the dogs are consistently ran, if they are lesser of a dog?

For example Sch 3 club level vs Sch 3 national level

Well I honestly think that when one considers titles we need to throw SAR dogs in there as well, and that could be search and rescue, search and recovery, avalanche, wilderness etc. The very same attributes that make a great sport dog, are the same attributes needed for SAR. My female is a nationally certified working HRD K9. I stress working because we are called to go on searches, as that is what we trained and certified for. One key difference in SAR, Narc, and Police dogs is they have to recertify every year. Unlike a sport dog who one he/she is a SchH1 they always will be. I think we need to start reevaluating the term "working dog". I love schutzhund, I love working my dogs in this venue, but it is a sport, not a job. I think there are a lot of people that will immediately discredit a dog simply because it does not have the coveted SchH title, well I have seen some dogs with titles that look as if they are about to crap themselves, and then they are bred, so to me titles do not make a dog. JMHO.

Theresa

Shrabe, well said. It's a sport, not a job. Very well put. 

I have pups titled in similar venues to what you're speaking of, and it's a serious, ongoing commitment and JOB...never ends, really. Very intensive and depending on the venue, the dog MUST be absolutely solid and stable and sound in every way. No real way to cover it up w/lots of conditioning (well, not as easily, anyway). People ask me why I don't further their dam's SchH, titles, and I think "what for?" What would it change?" Honestly, when I get the time to do more "organized" stuff w/her, it won't be SchH that we pursue. I already know she can do SchH, and I already know she can do a hell of a lot more. I'd like to concentrate on that stuff, more challenging, less ritualized things. Just a personal preference. I get bored easily.  She, OTOH, has a blast w/SchH, so I still bring her out to train now and again. 

I guess I would prefer to see SchH back as a TEST, pass/fail, and not a competition. IMO, any time you have competition, you have politics, and politics and dog breeding are an ugly combination. 

I think that a regular old GSD should be able to do SchH. I don't think it should take some rocket science to produce a dog that can do SchH and do it well. Of course you need to test regularly and not go generation upon generation of untitled dogs if you want to keep SchH talent in the lines. That's a given. But as far as requiring titles for breeding in all circumstances, I'm not for that, either. There are just too many variables and situations where it's not practical. If a dog is producing titled dogs and the dog isn't titled itself, is that such a horrible thing? The reason we want the titles is so we "know" right? If that's the case, then there should be other means of "knowing," right?  Now, this isn't meant as a "go ahead and breed your untitled dog a hundred times and see if you get two who are capable of titling." I just mean that to me, titles are neither a sure thing nor a dealbreaker. 

Breeding dogs without titles is the same as breeding dogs without hip certifications. Make what ever excuses you want but German only issues pink papers on titled litters, that is parents titled. I bet most who are saying titles mean nothing also have dogs without certified hips.

There's a lot of SAR certified dogs (and handlers) that have no business being on a search, especially because lives could be at stake.  There are some active teams that are certainly adequate but again, papered accomplishments are not a very reliable measure for 'general' breed suitability.  And the standards of the certifying organizations for the SAR dog venues are many and variable.  I see an overemphasis on the titling systems that leads me to seriously wonder if that line of thinking is causing ruination of workingdog breeding.  Titles issue an unchallenged liscence to breed shit dogs.

As to the statement that my dog is untitled means her hips are not certified is absolutely incorrect, her hips and elbows are certified and stamped as "A" Normal from Germany. I also never said that titles mean nothing, I do not agree with titles be the end all be alll!!!! As to some SAR dogs not needing to be on a search well you would be correct, I am sure there are. However, there are just as many SHIT, and I emphasise SHIT, dogs that are schutzhund titled that have no business in the gene pool and yet there they are producing to a detriment to the breed, and why, all because they have a title!!! While papered accomplishments may not be reilable, the same can be said for the "sport" world as well. I work my female in both venues, and I do think her calling is cadaver work and we have been on several searches, I do not work with a group, I work with a police officer who has been handling cadaver dogs for over a decade, and also with her partner. I am not saying all SAR dogs should be bred, however not all titled dogs should be either.


Theresa

A large variety of breeds can be consistently successful at search and rescue or detection work.  But only a few breeds are consistently successful at police work or bite sports.  I disagree that a dog that can do S&R can also do bite work.  But I would bet the majority of dogs that can title in schutzhund can also do S&R/detection work.  So I don't think S&R is an acceptable gage of what a breed worthy shepherd is.

It kills me that people think you train a dog to do the schutzhund routine by only training the routine.

The shepherd is a working breed.  After years and years of breeding dogs with SchH titles or police/military certs, I see a very good maintenance of versatile working abilities.  Start breeding the shepherd with out titles, because its a good S&R dog or good at other non protection or non bite type work (ex. Seeing eye, show ring), and you start loosing the essence and versatility of the breed.

shrabe, the S&R dog needs to be recertified every year because lives are counting on the dog to KNOW what to do every time it goes to work.  Schutzhund just tests a dogs temperament and ability at a minimum standard.  If the dog has the minimum temperament once, it has it for life.



This thread isnt about whether a title proves a dog is breed worthy.  No one with any knowledge of shepherds will argue that schutzhund title is a free pass to breed a dog.  The thread is about whether to breed dogs with out titles.

Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.  Just because there are a few titled dogs that don't deserve to be bred, doesn't mean we should throw out minimum standard titles all together.

"Who started loweing the bar on the test? Germans. Who allowed the true working line dogs with proper working  conformation to became the roached back monsters they became  ? Germans. Who invented the "mid nite trial" Germans. Who allowed the working dog of Germany to become a money most important issue? Germans."

So the answer to my question is that you've never been to Germany and your suggestion that a significant percentage of schutzhund titles awarded there aren't deserved is simply hearsay.  I would submit that you understand very little about Germans.
 
So, were you training and trialing GSD's before this so-called "bar" was lowered?  Did you even know how to spell GSD then?  Is it possible that some aspects of schutzhund were changed simply because they really didn't amount to a hill of beans as it relates to the dogs' working ability but it did put the dogs at risk unnecessarily and very good dogs were sustaining permanent injuries that ended their working careers?

"Objective opinion from the Germans??? Keith I love you like a brother... I  got some Land in Florida by a swamp that will make a GREAT investment oppurtunity for you...Trust me :)."

Bob, Bob, Bob...you don't even know me so it isn't possible that you could love me like a brother.  I like your online persona, though; you seem to have a fairly good sense of humor and I'd potentially like to come up and train with you sometime.  Having said that, please don't preach about correct working conformation when you are knowingly and intentionally breeding a dog that has bad elbows; ok?  There are so many excellent stud dogs available from any lines that have exemplary work and no such issues and the cost of breeding to them is reasonable enough that there is never any reason to do so.

In Australia where we live, dogs are not titled at all except for the small minority of dogs belonging to Schutzhund club members which are mostly Malinois of late. Apart from a couple of titled dogs imported from Germany which are no longer producing there wouldn't be more than 12 or so titled GSD's in the country that are producing, all males and can't recall any litters from titled bitches or recall any titled bitches that are young enough to produce now days.

The question how to aquire a working line GSD in Australia with some promise is a difficult process as the pups available and being bred from untitled dogs amounts to what the breeders interpretation of their bloodlines and as most would imagine nearly every litter on the ground each breeder considers is the best litter born, but interestingly what they base the greatness of their litter upon is the ancestory of titled dogs in the pedigree for example, the litter may be marketed upon a 4-5 line breeding on Kuran van Tiekerhook or Stormfront Brawnson as a viability for potential greatness, or they may be line bred on 20 dogs in a 5 generation pedigree shown to prospective buyers the great dogs in the line breeding which is assumed the pups will carry those traits?

The other factor are breedings on dogs working in the private security sector where there are no formal standards for a dog to comply with to be a security dog, some security dogs can be untrained pets or showline dogs over sharp in temperament who bark easily and look aggressive. Some of the security breedings in working lines are based on sharpness and civil drive and trained in bitework, but few of these dogs would pass a BH being too reactive or dog aggressive by nature to pass the traffic test although are often considered great dogs judged upon their instinctive reactivity towards a non threatening stimulus. Handler aggression is often considered a good trait by some demonstrating a dogs non compliance or lack of pack drive assumed as a good foundation for hardness and fighting drive?. Handler aggressive and sharp reactive dogs are often admired and used in stud to produce what is assumed to be a potentially great litter of hard working dogs.

Personally, I don't believe too many working line breeders in Australia have a clue what traits make up a well balanced GSD because of the no titling situation, the dogs are not worked across a wide enough range of variables for them to properly determine the traits required of a good dog. A dog may exhibit a good grip and bitework ethics with fighting drive triggered by insecuirty and defence drive, but a litter modeled on a dog that cannot be titled because of over reativity and handler aggression or dogs that have no proven record of trainability required to successfully title, without the knowledge and experience of titling dogs to learn the required traits of a great dog, I don't think reproducing great dogs for the most part is possible.

The pup I chose was sired by a son of Fax vom Greznganger mated to a stable bitch high in prey drive which linebred 2-4 back on Fax and 3-5 on Fax's parents on the basis that dogs of similar lines makes up the majority of the dogs that have been titled in Australia, this breeding had the best potential from what was available to produce a pup with the desired traits for sport which to date, he's looking fairly good in training?