Really confuse with Show line vs Work line - Page 3

 You might be correct, that the division has already gone too far, none of us wants to water down the qualities we have bred for, so it would take a lot of courage on the part of breeders on both sides to try this.  I still insist there are some very, very good show line dogs out there (temperament wise), just as there are some WL dogs with more than acceptable structure.  I will be interested to hear what the two SV judges say about this issue (if anything) tomorrow.

Red Sable said " but the structure is the same to perform every job, right?". Absolutely RS, and the standard reflects what has been determined to be optimal structure for the GSD to perform almost any task it is put to. Regardless of one's interpretation, the standard (as pertains to structure) was written for the work of the GSD, not for show. 

The fact that some with s/l choose to overlook certain faults is no different or worse than those in w/l who choose to over look different faults. And then there are still many in both lines who choose to breed as close to the standard as possible for them to do. These are the people who really carry the breed forward. Their goals go beyond what they have in their kennel.

Rik

Holy crap, the board is COVERED with double posts today. I even did a triple! 

Well in my opinion and not trying to start anything, working and show line are 2 different breeds. I am into working dog and belong to a SCH club. In my experience just watching different dogs of members and guests, most if not all, show breeds that I have seen at the club are larger, slower, less athletic, dramatically less driven and really struggle in the most minimal of SCH tasks. There is only one SCH lll titled show dogs, but that dog is no where close to a SCH lll titled working dog. It's the difference between night and day.

I'm not trying to put down show breeds at all, it just depends what you want to do with your dog. IMO don't let breeders tell you that their show breed can actually work successfully in SCH, maybe on paper but compared to a working dog line, I just haven't seen it. I know a lot of people that fell for that line and really regret not doing their homework on the real differences between Show and Working GSD's. If you do want a show line and want to work in SCH, you may be able to do it but be prepared for a long and very difficult journey.

pcw

Louise,
Czech dogs have type, DDR dogs have type, and on average they have stronger working capabilities than the type established by the Martins. Also, if you look at the type or structure of the Czech dogs or DDR dogs, they tend to look more like Marko vom Cellerland, or Mutz vd Peltzerferm, or Bernd v Lierberg than current dogs that have evolved from the Martin's. So, I guess the question is when structure and working were considered exemplary in "one" dog, what has changed????/
Is it the standard, is it the type, is it the need for one color to establish type, is it the Judges opinions, is it money???
Or were these three dogs I mentioned, not the embodiment of the breed, but moreso what we have today in the showring?
I need to be educated! I have studied the pedigrees of all these types all the way back to Horand....the temperament and structure of today's dogs can be explained through the pedigrees, if people study them and understand genetics. Louise, I know you know your dogs and you know pedigrees, I'm just saying that today many people breed what they LIKE as opposed to what is best for the breed and that's how we got the split.

i came across a website where this kennel was selling protection dogs. the dogs that were to be sold for police, military, and personal protection were the working line sable and black dogs. the family and protection were the showline blk/red ones.

is he discriminating the dogs or do he know that showlines arent capable of doing military/police work? i feel like emailing him to ask him this question.

i can link the kennel if people want to see it.

Well, I can see that SL and WL fans are backing their strain of the breed...

IMPO; The Martins pushed their vision of a product and not necesarily the best interest of the breed.  In doing so, they shoved aside the sables and blacks from the showrings and helped to entice the breeders of those dogs into a market that defined itself as the Working-lines dog, or as I like to call it, the "Anti-showline-GSD" 

If you look at where the WL breeders are taking their breedings, we are headed to freakishly large headed dogs with vise-grip jaws, outsized prey drives and hefty bone structure and lest I forget, temperaments that require that the dogs be worked daily or they'll develop behavioral issues.  While "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", it takes a rather intense hue of rose colored glasses to argue that many of these WL dogs are not bred as versatile working/herding dogs.  These WL dogs are just as specialized as any American show-line GSD bred to the particular sensibilities of the AKC circuit Judges and to holy hell with the breed standard in the pursuit of a dog that is easy to train and sell but may not be worth a pile of sawdust in a real world situation where their prey drive isnot as useful as the defense drive that is bred out of many to make them easier to train..

I've stated in other threads that one of my favorite GSD's is Frei von der Gugge, and I find that Javir vom Talka Marda could compete in the showring at the highest level were it not for the color expectation in show rings.  Two of my last three dogs have been bi-colored blanket-backed GSD's of hefty structure and mixed (SL & WL) pedigree and great temperament with substantial defense drive; and the other is a Frei-bloodline/Ilbo Von Holtkamper See grand daughter that is both pleasing to the eye and works methodically in tracking and protection with a very upbeat temperament and balanced drives.  My point is that you can have it all, but the path is neither easy nor certain for the breeder.  It is a lot easier to focus on a handful of traits that are fairly easy to attain or would be considered flaws outside of the narrow market the breeder has chosen than to breed a balanced dog that adheres to the breed standard and has few flaws.  IMPO, outside of those deemed to be disqualifying flaws, color is not important and we should see more sables and black dogs in the show rings.  Until we cull the market of lazy profit seeking breeders, we'll continue seeing them exploit the buyer's ignorance on what a GSD is, or should be and dogs like Javir will be the exeption rather than the norm.

As to MRK's question of: "is he discriminating the dogs or do he know that showlines arent capable of doing military/police work?" the answer may be that in a familysetting, a black & red GSD is likely to be seen as a pet, while a sable or black may hint that the dog is more likely to be a PPD.  The opposite also may apply for military and police duty.  Once again, temperament is more important than color, but breeders tend to give the customer what the customer is willing to pay for.  Even if the customer is not educated.

 Could this be the reason why SL are not popular with police/military?

www.youtube.com/watch

Yes but  UrLucky, with all those correct angles and type,  at least the  dog could keep up with the bad guy for hours on end!!!!!  hahahaha!