Uncontrolable aggression..... - Page 3

How is he biteing in protection work?

Will he stay on the bit if someone waves their hand over his head?

He certainally has an edge to him.  Build his confidence by exposing him to regular life stuff, like being in public.

Sounds like fear to me, i could be wrong.

If he works well and dosnt shift too much on the bite with light preasure he will probably be ok.

Is he ok with everyone in the household?

That should be the main issue.

You may spend considerable time in bite work covering a lot of genetic stuff.  Tell us about his parents and their temperments.

Robert

Did I miss something?  Who said this dog was doing bitework, where did the bitework come from? 

Jim

It was probable I that missed something.

I figured he was familar with bitework because he said he was sure that the dog had no fear.

Although it would be a sure fire way to see if there is fear in the heart.  See how he bites on a rag with a stranger.
Robert

I agree this dog is in a Defensive Fear Aggression.  

To get this dog past his issue, you must work in the " RED ZONE "  so to speak.   What I mean is at home he is obedient with you this is a " Green Zone "   When he is out on walks and other dogs and people are Present this is the " Red Zone ".

You will have to make it your mission to work this dog every chance you get in the environment that he is no good.   You should take him to an obedience class for the purpose of having to be amongst other dogs and people.  Until, you are able to get him to understand that his job is to be obedient to you no matter what he feels insecure about.   Make sure the instructor is aware of the purpose of your being there.  So, they may be able to set up situations and scenarios for you and the dog to learn from.  Absolutely expect Frustration on Both you and the dogs part.  With out Frustration there is no Education !

IF you can't make it to class very often,  then at least find a friend with a calm confident stable dog to work around. A dog that makes your dog go off .   Once, again  you have to make sure that you are setting up what is called a " CONTROLLED CATSTROPHE "   .    In other words, you will be prepared to counter what your dog is going to do, so that you can teach him that that behavior is  not acceptable.    You don't leave the situation until you have gained control of your dog.  And Really the end goal would be that the other dog can sniff your dogs behind, while your dog stands quiet. 

If I have a Puppy or young dog come with this type of behavior , I will let one of my senior dogs out, and hold the puppy so that they have to allow the other dog to sniff them.  Then, I will let the puppy or young dog interact with the dog I have out.  All  of this really boils down to lack of Proper social skills, and confidence. 

For Example :  I am walking your dog and I see up ahead there are people and dogs coming, maybe your  dog hasn't noticed yet.    I am going to stop make the dog sit and face me.    The Idea is to control his actions before they get out of control.   Let's say he is starting to notice now, and want to look.  You need to give a correction and say " No Leave it "   If you have started to teach a  " LOOK or  " WATCH ME "   command you would say it after the correction and Leave it command.   

If somehow the dog is starting to escalate in his behavior , and a simple collar correction is not going to acheive the desired behavior ,  Then I will escalate my correction to a Pinch on the Flank, still repeating the " NO Leave it " .  With some dogs, you might have to repeat this numerous times until you get the desired response.    Also, everytime you use the correction it needs to increase in INTENSITY ,  until you reach the desired reaction. 

You have to make sure that what ever correction you use , it will go above the dogs desire to act out.  In , Other words, it is  to put out the spark before it becomes a fire .     Your voice doesn't need to escalate , just the physical correction.  The physical correction like the " PINCH OF THE FLANK "  is like a Nipp from Alpha.        Your dog will start to understand that you  " ARE "  Alpha even in the " Red Zone "  .    He will start to t

Oh, LORD. More great ideas for physical corrections to an aggressive dog executed by people who really don't know what they're doing. Before this is all over, I bet someone suggests the alpha roll, LMAO.  Not picking on any one person here, but while these physical corrections (slap under the chin, pinch on the flank) might work w/weak temperamented dogs, I DO NOT RECOMMEND ANYONE TRY EITHER/ANY OF THESE W/A "REAL" DOG ("real" for lack of a better word.) I have a dog who a decoy pinched HARD on the flank during his first intro to bitework. That was 5 years ago. Do you think you can get near his flank today without a reaction? I'd love to see someone "correct" him by pinching his flank. Better call the ambulance first, so they're on the way before you do it. Or slap a dog in the face to correct for aggression. Again, if dealing w/anything but Grandmas's Labradoodle, better call the ambulance ahead of time so they get there before you bleed to death.

Am I exaggerating? Maybe. But I don't think this point can be overstated. This is why dogs get in trouble for biting, and this is why inexperienced (and some just plain stupid) people get hurt! Ultimately, it's the dog who suffers- euthanasia, abandonment, rehoming, etc. PREVENT tragedies/accidents- dont' INVITE them.

Jamille, I totally disagree with you on what this dog should have to endure from other dogs.  This dog might need to learn to be indifferent to other dogs minding their own business, but why oh why do people think all dogs must tolerate invasive introductions to other dogs?! He simply needs to be able to be walked down the street and not have to cross when another dog comes along. He doesn't need to have a play date! JMO. If the owner wants a Golden Retriever, this dog would be better off somewhere else. Different dogs have different thresholds and it's OUR job as handlers to find the safe, happy medium between control and continually inflicting misery.

Jenni 78,

If you read my post thoroughly, you would have seen that I suggested he go to a class that has an "INSTRUCTOR" .
 
That was first, because yes , you never know how much knowledge or experience someone has. 

I did not reccomend slapping, or rolling or standing on or beating with a stick or what ever you want to exagerate , and  We are not talking about Protection work.!!

150 yrds is NOT  intrusive to his space !!  So, my Sch 3 bitch shouldn't be expected to tolerate another dog working and doing obedience on the field less than 150 yrds away ???  Are you Crazy ??  She will Tolerate a dog 1 foot from her.  Unless the dog Jumps her I expect her full attention.  And , If we are not in the middle of focused heeling, and we are just hanging out amongst other people and their dogs,  I still expect her to control her self unless her physical space has been invaded. 

And, yes you do have to escalate to some type of correction to get something different than he is getting now !!   If Flanking will get the dog to turn and look at me even if it makes him mad, That is exactly what I want.   If he does his bad behavior again, I will Flank again.  Because,  I need your attention not anything else. 

The whole point to the person coming on here and asking for suggestions , is exactly to avoid more of a liability issue, or biting or euthinasia, abandonment, rehoming ,  " AS YOU STATED " 

I didn't say he had to be Buddies , Just Tolerate ! 

So, besides saying what you don't agree with , why don't you offer constructive solutions! 

You are actualy SUGGESTING an inexperienced owner, way over his head, with a insecure, defensive, fear based agressive dog ... you are suggesting he FLANKS him to "get his attention"? Dear God...

Don't offer any more advice in this matter, please - this one will do fine NOT TO FOLLOW..

Jamille, if you read the entire thread, you will see that I have posted more than just that post.I believe I did offer constructive advice, not the least of which is TRY NOT TO GET YOURSELF KILLED BY LISTENING TO PEOPLE WHO DON'T TRULY KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH AGGRESSIVE DOGS. I apologize if you took offense.
 And yes, believe me, I did read your entire post. However, you seem to think MY entire post was about you. It certainly was not. Anyway, this dog does not need to got to a class w/a bunch of dogs at some big name pet store. This dog needs either a one-on-one trainer who can slowly introduce him, OR, his owner needs to commit to doing this himself. If he can find a group class w/a trainer who knows which end of the dog to feed, then great. I just have my doubts.

I don't know what you're talking about in reference to 150yds.  That's fine; you suggested the goal being to let another dog sniff his butt and have him just stand here. To refresh your memory, here's what you said: Once, again you have to make sure that you are setting up what is called a " CONTROLLED CATSTROPHE " . In other words, you will be prepared to counter what your dog is going to do, so that you can teach him that that behavior is not acceptable. You don't leave the situation until you have gained control of your dog. And Really the end goal would be that the other dog can sniff your dogs behind, while your dog stands quiet. 

 I don't own a dog that I would allow a dog to do that to. I simply don't think they should have to tolerate it unless they are interested in making acquaintances, which this dog clearly is not. Hence, my statement that he needs to tolerate; he does not need to have a freaking play date.

Furthermore, since you seem to want to discuss what I disagree with, I disagree with repeatedly setting a dog up for failure, making him endure ever progressing physical corrections, and doing it until 'you have gained control." Do you mean truly gained control or flanked (no need to capitalize a verb) him into submission? Having a tired, defeated, most likely confused dog give up is not the same as gaining control. Why not set up situations where he has the opportunity to do the right thing, praise him for that, and correct him when he behaves badly? Find his threshold, push it a little farther each time, but try to end on a positive note? Don't you think that might work just a teensy bit better? Hell, I'm sure 2x4 over the head would get his attention too, but at what cost?

For the record, I am NOT at all opposed to strong corrections when needed. But to suggest a newb execute essentially violence on an angry, aggressive dog, just doesn't seem like one of the top ten smartest things I've heard this week.

Go ahead, keep flanking your dog to get his attention- do it harder and harder.Not only are the "corrections" you suggest dangerous, but IMO, they're disrespectful as well, and won't go over terribly well with a dog who demands respect. I hope you never meet a dog who will stick up for itself.

Jenni,

Yes,  I must have misread some of your post.

There are actually  points in both of our post that are in agreement.

First of all, anything written on this screen is most likely to be misunderstood, because it is so impersonal.

My advice was given in order of least intrusive to more intrusive.   

Ultimately the owner wants a dog that is safe and reliable.    I don't disagree that trying positive situations would be more desirable.  As, I suggested to go to a class with an Instructor that is aware of your goals.   I did not say Petsmart or Petco or Some Pet store.    The only way the dog is going to get over his problem with other dogs and people is to work around them.   You can not avoid the situations that you have trouble in , if you want to get better.  That is why I said there would be Frustration.  I know you said to work up to this in small steps, but he has already been trying to control the situation and it is not working.  Once again, I am making assumtions as far as understanding him through the computer screen without knowing his knowledge base.   Which is impossible to really know, unless you see the behavior first hand. 

Then, I suggested that if that wasn't possible, have a friend with a calm , confident stable dog to work around.   Because,  really the dogs problem is that he is not confident, he is fearful, and the aggression is a mask.    He figures if he explodes and acts big the other dog won't come do him harm.  This too would be a positive way to introduce some control.    And when, I said he needs to be able to be sniffed from behind, it is because this dog is coming from a fear based aggression.   Which means,  ultimately he should have enough confidence to handle another dog sniffing him.      But, also understand that might not be possible at first. 

Then, I suggested that  while he was out on a walk to be aware ahead of time when something may set him off , and try to redirect his focus.  Maybe, my point wasn't  very clear.   This is now my Third  suggestion, that has nothing to do with "VIOLENCE "   as you stated.     Once, again this is an opportunity to set the dog up for success, not failure. 

All of my above statements would fit under the umbrella of  a " Controlled Catastrophe "  .   A  Controlled  Catastrophe is specifically designed to help the handler to get better communication and control in situations that can cause problems.   It is absolutely designed for success for the dog.   It allows the handler to know exactly when a situation is going to occur, so that he can be prepared.  Instead , of being reactive  he can be proactive.  The goal is to be able to increase the amount of distraction as the dog and handler get better control in small situations first.   Maybe my point again wasn't very clear. 

Then, finally I mention  the Pinching.  Because as the owner indicated he is majorly consearned about controling this dog and he specifically calls him a Knucklehead.    Has serious doubts of any reliability around other dogs.   There are dogs that need harsher corrections than just collar corrections, and the pinch is not a stabbing in the Heart for God's sake.
It is a Pinch !    This dog is not described as a handler aggressive dog, coming up the line at the handler is not probable.  My interpretation of him is that he is fear based.  A fear based aggression needs a leader, and every once in a while Alpha has to make it