Difference between Schutzund and Personal Protection Training? - Page 3

I've shown this before but, I love this video of Bernard Flinks working a great dog. A dog that is schutzhund trained and is/was a working K9. As a K9 this dog has REAL bites in REAL situations. He's a keeper!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjFQ0UbH224&feature=related

ronin, I agree with you completely.A ppd is a nice concept but few are the real deal.Most will show alert-aggression when they are in a somewhat safe zone. Once real physical threat and pain is introduced some will choose avoidance over fight if the situation permits. Many different routines and scenarios can be trained,but not all and many times the real ones don't play out the same way. A surprise and real life physical threat might produce a different reaction then what was expected from the training.As for the difference in training, ppd dogs are not trained to participate in a sport or game,but  as close to possible in real life scenarios where the bad guy inflicts pain and pressure and works the dog in defense or fight drive, not a decoy he is playing a game where there is no real physical danger to him.As stated earlier obedience doesn't have to be pretty with a ppd, but is desirable, however the ppd has to be 100% in his obedience work 100% of the time.Dogs that are truly reliable and stable for this type of training are few and far between.                   

ForFoxyRoxy, you are not alone. I have a rott that stands beside me.

Prager, #4 so correct, so amazes me that this is not understood more. To me this is a must and the number one thing I look for in a dog.

sorry to bring such an old topic back up. but i had a question that maybe someone can answer.

1. if a novice wanted a ppd, would it be easier to get a puppy and train it yourself through classes, or would it be easier to just purchase a dog that has already been trained in that field of personal protection?

2. and would you guys recommend a ppd to a novice in the first place?

I don't want to comment on this thread except to the last post above, as I can tyupeallnight and still not say shit. But, I'll say a few, just to say something... Bob is correct, but Bobs in this world are rare - Bob is talking what sxhutzhund SHOLD be (and has been) a while ago but it isn't anymore - sadly).

Alpne K9 guy is correct in his assumptions as well.

For the other posters... what people call "prey monsters". I dislike the term,but that kind of a dogisvery fashionable in Sch nowadays. You can take to the bank that that kind of adog WILL NOT protect you for real if you are TRULY threatened. Be 100% sure of that.

But, the other side of the medal - not all Schutzhund dogs are "prey monsters". Plenty of them are good dogs that WILL protect the owner and act appropriately if the situation arises.

For me, the "real dog" (the way GSD should be) is a joy to watch in a Schutzhund trial and is the most fun to see and observe during trial, for me. A real dog that just happens to be doing schutzhund is a goal.

Does tracking because it enjoys it, does obedience half assed and as a favor to the owner/handler and in protection is unmistekably "there".  People that understand dogs and know a good dog when they see one will understand what I am talking about.

There is a clear difference in the exercise called the "blind search", when just a decent dog is doing a "blind search" and when you see a real deal dog actualy "hunting"  for the decoy while plowing through the blinds.

A difference between a "sport" dog, serious PPD dog a great all around dog is always seen in the training... Just a small example, then I will answer the questions of the poster above me, the sole reason Ieven respondedto this thread.

A sport dog - unmistekable when you see it, very nice dog, will be so focused on the sleeve, handler can (and I have been) literally step on its tail while it's sitting with the decoy in front of him, won't even flinch, the focus on the sleeve is so there. Once the bite is done, and tra la la game is done, loses all interest when sleeve is not presented and not a part of equation anymore. With this kidn ofa dog there is a 50-50 chance (or less!) it might do something or it might hightail it if a truly scary person wants to harm you.

A serious PPD dog has in himself the capability to seriously injure and maul a human and be okay with it. You see that type of dog in schutzhund training when it clearly "fights" the helper, once the sleeve is slipped, does one circle spits the sleeve outof his mouth and stares at a helpermotionlessignorning the sleeve. He doesn't want jute, he wants meat. That's a serious PPD material dog and whoever is reading this -you DO NOT want to own that dog, however cool and daydreaming about it might be alluring. That dog is a military and police k9 and security forces material. It's the reall deal,yes, but more trouble than it's worth for an average GSD owner. As Jack Nicholson says in the movie - You can't handle the truth"! So, you can't handle that kind of dog, although it is very fancy to daydream and think - That is one bad mo fo, I sure wish I had it. Everybody should know their limits and you would be biting more than you can chew.

Third dog, the real good,balanced GSD as it should be, will do a fight honestly and convincingly, powerfully and mightily, do a circle with the sleeve then spit it. As soon as there is a 1 second lul in the fight, it will then go back and forth barking and lunging between the sleeve and the helper giving them equal attention. That's the dog that will do 92 in tracking, 82 in obedience and 99 in protection. It'll never win the nationals but it'sa better dog to breed (if all else checks out forbreeding, of co

 It'll never win the nationals but it'sa better dog to breed (if all else checks out forbreeding, of course), then the "prancing pony", is a real joy to watch, beautiful sight to behold, noble animal to own and a great companion to have.

Usualy, when that kind of a dog competes, he's like around 25th place, out of 60 dogs competing and is better than 15 or 16 dogs that scored above him. I am pulling these numbers out of my ass, just to prove a point and as an example, it doesn't have to play out that way. I'll stop here now as 100pages could be typed and stillnot scratch the surface of such a loaded and complex question as presentedint he thread.

Now, to the guy that posted above me with 2 questions...

1. if a novice wanted a ppd, would it be easier to get a puppy and train it yourself through classes, or would it be easier to just purchase a dog that has already been trained in that field of personal protection?

Answer: If you can wait 2 to 3 years and train a dog 3 or 4 times a week (I don't mean go to the sch club 2 to 3 times a week,although, plenty of people do it, myselfincluded - MOST weeks), but train and work with the puppy yourself every day) for 2 to 3 years till the dog matures, then, yes, that would  be a great idea. Even after all that time, there is absolutely no guarantee that the puppy will grow up to be what you want it to be and you've wasted 3 years.

2. and would you guys recommend a ppd to a novice in the first place?

Absolutely not. I would recommend Remington 870, or Mossberg 500Persuader, Glock 17 or 19, self defense classes. BEsides that, as a family member and a companion, one can get a real good, all around good GSD that COULD do schutzhund, if the owner so chooses, is a stable, powerful and calm animal, willing to please and work for the handler, even a novice making mistakes, willbe a joy to own and integrate as a full fledged memberof the family.

My question to you? Why do you feel the need to own a personal protection dog?

lukemoua,

I had one.
I went through the training as the dogs owner/handler.
I would not buy one already trained for various reasons.
They aren't cheap.
You will need to learn how to control and maintain the dog and its training.
The dog bonds with you as a pup and going through the various training stages together strengthens that bond.
You will know how to react as a team.
You will know what your dog can and will do because you have been there with him. (training situations)
It was one of the best training experiences in my life and to this day I'm glad that I did it.
The dog I went through training with was over a year old when we started.
If I did it again, I would probably start the pup in some socialization, tracking and basic obedience before I got to the protection phase.
A large part of my training was obedience in the beginning.
I hired a trainer that brought other people to attack me.
You might start looking for trainers in your area.
Ask lots of questions about training and puppy bloodline recommendations.

Lee

Adi,

I did not see your reply.

You asked a good question.

"My question to you? Why do you feel the need to own a personal protection dog?"

Lee

Does anyone remember the event recently with J-lo's gsd on board a flight?  She told the airline attendant to not approach her- which she did- and the dog attacked.

Do you guys think this is a protection dog gone bad?  An out of control owner?

Just wondering...  but it is possibly a real-life situation with a PPD, and so somewhat related...

Adi and Lee,
 Thank you for you replies...very helpful indeed.

Adi, I personally wanted a personal protection dog because I remember as a kid watching some police officers showing off their dogs on a field trip. There were three officers talking to each other and one had jumped on the back of the officer owning the dog. Right at that moment, the dog ran to aid his partner, which was fine, ready to protect. Ever since then I told myself "That's what I want!". Oh, and I don't like guns therefore, a ppd is the next best thing, right?



Lee,
true, they are not cheap! but thank you for your response.



Luke