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by Abby Normal on 17 February 2012 - 09:02
Blitzen
The UK KC is not the organisation trying to get it done - they are standing in the way! Money talks, and they would lose registration money by doing this - ever the way!
It is everyone else that wants this to happen, breeders included on the *face* of it. I don't know what a *secret* vote might lead to among breeders! But publicly, certainly GSD breeders have been campaigning for years for mandatory heath tests, and so have many other breeds. A few notable breeds...not so much.
By the virtue of mandatory health tests to obtain registration, if a dog isn't registered it cannot be shown, therefore it cannot achieve any awards. Along with this needs to go DNA identification to prevent the inevitable cheating that would no doubt be attempted. What a world! Yes, it is needed IMO.
Oh, and lets remember, this blind and deaf stud is going to be in greater demand now he has produced a BOB. It staggers me. Still in the back of my mind I wonder how many (pet) puppy owners actually know that the sire of their puppy is blind and deaf, bearing in mind that this very salient fact was not referenced at all (surprise) on their website. Somehow I think that would be none. Who here would buy a puppy knowing it was sired by a blind and deaf dog - anyone ????
The UK KC is not the organisation trying to get it done - they are standing in the way! Money talks, and they would lose registration money by doing this - ever the way!
It is everyone else that wants this to happen, breeders included on the *face* of it. I don't know what a *secret* vote might lead to among breeders! But publicly, certainly GSD breeders have been campaigning for years for mandatory heath tests, and so have many other breeds. A few notable breeds...not so much.
By the virtue of mandatory health tests to obtain registration, if a dog isn't registered it cannot be shown, therefore it cannot achieve any awards. Along with this needs to go DNA identification to prevent the inevitable cheating that would no doubt be attempted. What a world! Yes, it is needed IMO.
Oh, and lets remember, this blind and deaf stud is going to be in greater demand now he has produced a BOB. It staggers me. Still in the back of my mind I wonder how many (pet) puppy owners actually know that the sire of their puppy is blind and deaf, bearing in mind that this very salient fact was not referenced at all (surprise) on their website. Somehow I think that would be none. Who here would buy a puppy knowing it was sired by a blind and deaf dog - anyone ????
by Blitzen on 17 February 2012 - 17:02
Sure, I could be wrong, but given most GSD breeders I know with German dogs detest the AKC and the GSDCA, I can't quite see them agreeing to allow the AKC or the GSDCA to tell them which health checks should be done. Hips and elbows probably. DM, CERF, thyroid, cardiac? I doubt it. How would the "necessary" tests be determined? Doesn't the GSDCA require hips and elbows for selects and Grand Victors and Victresses?
I've belonged to 2 different breed clubs. One required specific health clearances in order for a member's dog to be presented with an annual achievment award. That club requires hips, elbows for a CHIC. Currently I am a member of the GSDCA. In order for a GSD to receive the CHIC designation the dog must have normal hips and elbows and must have passed their temperament test. Other breed clubs have their own requirements and some don't participate in the CHIC program.
Even if by some miracle AKC sanctioned breed clubs would make it mandatory for members to certify that their breeding stock free of specific health issues, how exactly would that impact the world of purebred dogs? Not trying to be argumentive, I honestly don't get it.
I've belonged to 2 different breed clubs. One required specific health clearances in order for a member's dog to be presented with an annual achievment award. That club requires hips, elbows for a CHIC. Currently I am a member of the GSDCA. In order for a GSD to receive the CHIC designation the dog must have normal hips and elbows and must have passed their temperament test. Other breed clubs have their own requirements and some don't participate in the CHIC program.
Even if by some miracle AKC sanctioned breed clubs would make it mandatory for members to certify that their breeding stock free of specific health issues, how exactly would that impact the world of purebred dogs? Not trying to be argumentive, I honestly don't get it.
by Abby Normal on 17 February 2012 - 23:02
I can only speak of the UK, as I don't know or understand the requirements of the AKC. I guess the breed specific tests could be agreed by the FCI with representative breed clubs to make them universal, or each country could seek recommendation from their own breed clubs. At the moment we in the UK are only talking elbows and hips. But it would be a start if these were mandatory rather than recommended.
But, as to how it impacts the world of purebred dogs, I am not talking breed clubs, I am talking mandatory health tests required by the KC for regisration. I am also talking general showing, such as Westminster and our Crufts (the equivalents of each other), in which any dog is required to be registered with the KC of that country in order to be eligible to be shown.
In show breeding the breeder is looking to breed a winning dog, or a dog which produces or may produce winners. If all dogs have to have mandatory health tests (passing grades) in order for progeny to be registered, then there would be no point in breeding dogs without the health tests, since they nor any of their progeny could be registered, and therefore not be shown and consequently never achieve any awards in a show ring. It would be a pointless breeding, a pet breeding if you like, and this is not why such breeders are doing this.
In the world of collies for example hearing and eye tests are recommended. Not because of merle breedings, but because they are problems within the breed, due to a number of conditions. So hearing and eye tests are carried out by good breeders (on each and every puppy in a litter too). In this case, this stud dog would have failed both hearing and eye tests, and he could not have been registered and neither could any of his progeny, if mandatory testing were in place.
Hope I am making more sense (it is quite late LOL).
Whilst many GSD breeders (especially of the German type) also despise our KC, they want these mandatory tests put in place so that other breeders who do not health test are brought into line to support the high standard of health testing that they routinely do. As things currently stand, you can have a dog with a 2/2 hip score stand an equal chance of winning a top award in the show ring as a dog with a 42/38 hip score or higher!
But, as to how it impacts the world of purebred dogs, I am not talking breed clubs, I am talking mandatory health tests required by the KC for regisration. I am also talking general showing, such as Westminster and our Crufts (the equivalents of each other), in which any dog is required to be registered with the KC of that country in order to be eligible to be shown.
In show breeding the breeder is looking to breed a winning dog, or a dog which produces or may produce winners. If all dogs have to have mandatory health tests (passing grades) in order for progeny to be registered, then there would be no point in breeding dogs without the health tests, since they nor any of their progeny could be registered, and therefore not be shown and consequently never achieve any awards in a show ring. It would be a pointless breeding, a pet breeding if you like, and this is not why such breeders are doing this.
In the world of collies for example hearing and eye tests are recommended. Not because of merle breedings, but because they are problems within the breed, due to a number of conditions. So hearing and eye tests are carried out by good breeders (on each and every puppy in a litter too). In this case, this stud dog would have failed both hearing and eye tests, and he could not have been registered and neither could any of his progeny, if mandatory testing were in place.
Hope I am making more sense (it is quite late LOL).
Whilst many GSD breeders (especially of the German type) also despise our KC, they want these mandatory tests put in place so that other breeders who do not health test are brought into line to support the high standard of health testing that they routinely do. As things currently stand, you can have a dog with a 2/2 hip score stand an equal chance of winning a top award in the show ring as a dog with a 42/38 hip score or higher!
by Rik on 18 February 2012 - 02:02
Blitzen, I don't consider anything you have posted as argumentative. It is your opinion and I feel you are sincere in it.
As far as opinions go, I agree with you on lots of issues you have expressed and have a different opinion on some. I do feel we should be able to discuss differences without being viewed as argumentative.
IMO, this deaf/blind defective Collie is the poster child of everything wrong with AKC/breed clubs in the U.S. and is the perfect example of what happens when a breed's well fare is left only to the ethics of the breeders. I am sure there are ethical Collie breeders, but as with every breed I have been associated with, they will never overcome a dog that can produce winners.
JMO,
Rik
As far as opinions go, I agree with you on lots of issues you have expressed and have a different opinion on some. I do feel we should be able to discuss differences without being viewed as argumentative.
IMO, this deaf/blind defective Collie is the poster child of everything wrong with AKC/breed clubs in the U.S. and is the perfect example of what happens when a breed's well fare is left only to the ethics of the breeders. I am sure there are ethical Collie breeders, but as with every breed I have been associated with, they will never overcome a dog that can produce winners.
JMO,
Rik
by Abby Normal on 18 February 2012 - 09:02
Rik
I wish I had said that! It sums it up perfectly.
There are differences of course between UK & AKC's and Breed Clubs, and I don't understand many features of the AKC/Breed Clubs.
I do not believe we have ever had a situation this extreme in the UK, nor would I ever want one, though I do wonder what reaction such a situation would provoke in the UK. I think it would be of apocalyptic proportions.
Will there be any reaction from the AKC on this do you think, now that the breeding behind the BOB winner has been made public?
I wish I had said that! It sums it up perfectly.
There are differences of course between UK & AKC's and Breed Clubs, and I don't understand many features of the AKC/Breed Clubs.
I do not believe we have ever had a situation this extreme in the UK, nor would I ever want one, though I do wonder what reaction such a situation would provoke in the UK. I think it would be of apocalyptic proportions.
Will there be any reaction from the AKC on this do you think, now that the breeding behind the BOB winner has been made public?
by Blitzen on 18 February 2012 - 17:02
IMO if the AKC receives any complaints about the collie, they will defer to the CC of A.
Believe me I share the concern about the state of purebred dogs. I have no answer to any of it. I really have mixed feelings about the AKC getting involved in mandating breed specific health regulations. It's like letting the fox watch the henhouse. I can't imagine the politics that would be involved in deciding which tests for which breeds and that would be only the start.
BTW I don't think that using double merles for breeding is rare in the Collie or Sheltie world. Maybe not common, but I'm pretty sure it's not the first time that a winning merle had a double merle sire. I imagine that most of those breeders already know about the double merle being used for breeding. I don't expect it will be a big deal to most of them.
by GSD2727 on 18 February 2012 - 18:02
"Doesn't the GSDCA require hips and elbows for selects and Grand Victors and Victresses?"
Do they require it now? I remember years ago I was on an email list for show line GSDs and they had a MAJOR FIT when a few people tried to push for the OFA requirement for Selects and it failed miserably! So they were able to finally get that rule passed?
Do they require it now? I remember years ago I was on an email list for show line GSDs and they had a MAJOR FIT when a few people tried to push for the OFA requirement for Selects and it failed miserably! So they were able to finally get that rule passed?
by Blitzen on 18 February 2012 - 19:02
http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2011/06/double-merle-breeders-dont-want-you-to-see-this.html
For Abby..........................
For Abby..........................
by Blitzen on 18 February 2012 - 19:02
I'll have to check that out, GSD2727. May be ROM's, not the GV's. Then again, it may be neither.
by Abby Normal on 18 February 2012 - 23:02
Blitzen
Yes, I saw it. Seems they are running and hiding, or at least seem mildly embarrassed.
Yes, I saw it. Seems they are running and hiding, or at least seem mildly embarrassed.
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