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by darylehret on 10 July 2010 - 19:07
Bomber v Wolfsheim is single handedly addressing that. He's got to be the most overbred stud in decades, and even the showline people seem to love him. You'll see the overall numbers of black dogs increase for generations, I think, and not too long before "Bomber-free" bloodlines becomes a commonly used phrase.
by sueincc on 10 July 2010 - 20:07
There aren't more sables than there used to be, the working lines have always been primarily sable because it's a dominant color. This isn't some new "trend". No self respecting decent working line breeder gives a shit about color beyond dark pigmentation and the color is within the standard. Whenever I see a working line breeder using color as part of their sales pitch I laugh.
by VomMarischal on 10 July 2010 - 21:07
My WL litter was 5 black and tans (maybe bi-color) and 5 sables. I'm no math whiz, but that sounds fairly close to 50/50.
by Silbersee on 11 July 2010 - 02:07
Bomber v Wolfsheim is single handedly addressing that. He's got to be the most overbred stud in decades, and even the showline people seem to love him. You'll see the overall numbers of black dogs increase for generations, I think, and not too long before "Bomber-free" bloodlines becomes a commonly used phrase.
Daryl,
I think that is grossly exaggerated. Bomber is popular, yes - but not any more than Eliot, Larry, Eyko (a very nice black and tan since this is part of the topic) or the J-litter Talka Marda. Javir is still the most popular dog. Bomber has been used extensively as a representative for his sire Vito. I could have bred to him but chose not do. His brother Bandit is with Molly in PA, so if I have a need for a Vito-son I would rather go to the brother. IMO, Bandit is the better structured one anyway.
There are much nicer blacks in Germany:
For structure, nobody could beat Paska vom Salztalblick (now deceased) and his son Nolan vom alten Wingertshaus. I bred to both of them with nice results.
One of the best producers of hard working dogs is Jucan von Peroh. www.von-peroh.de/Ruden/Jucan/jucan.html . Look at his two BSP-protection videos. In the 2007 one, the judge must have sweated because of the almost err, lol. IMO, Jucan deserves to be V-rated but his owner never bothered to go for it. Jucan's downfall is that he is only 63 cm, true medium size. However, he is praised everywhere for his hardness and aggression which he passes on. His father Karn (btw, a nice black and tan) was already reputed to produce offspring which sometimes tend to be a bit difficult but Jucan tops that (he is bringing Yoschy from his mother side). The critiques printed in the above link mention that.
A suggestion for your program: There is a V-rated black and tan Karn-son in the U.S. - Hudson von der kalten Hardt. He is a very hard and dominant dog, a BSP-participant and very father typical. Gary Hanrahan had him at his place for a while if I am not mistaken. I know Hudson and his brother Hutch (also a BSP-participant) personally from Germany. I do not have anything invested in him, just trying to be objective but he is worth looking into. I hope that he will be trialed to his potential. If not, it is of no fault of his own, he is just not an easy dog, typical Karn-offspring.
Chris
Daryl,
I think that is grossly exaggerated. Bomber is popular, yes - but not any more than Eliot, Larry, Eyko (a very nice black and tan since this is part of the topic) or the J-litter Talka Marda. Javir is still the most popular dog. Bomber has been used extensively as a representative for his sire Vito. I could have bred to him but chose not do. His brother Bandit is with Molly in PA, so if I have a need for a Vito-son I would rather go to the brother. IMO, Bandit is the better structured one anyway.
There are much nicer blacks in Germany:
For structure, nobody could beat Paska vom Salztalblick (now deceased) and his son Nolan vom alten Wingertshaus. I bred to both of them with nice results.
One of the best producers of hard working dogs is Jucan von Peroh. www.von-peroh.de/Ruden/Jucan/jucan.html . Look at his two BSP-protection videos. In the 2007 one, the judge must have sweated because of the almost err, lol. IMO, Jucan deserves to be V-rated but his owner never bothered to go for it. Jucan's downfall is that he is only 63 cm, true medium size. However, he is praised everywhere for his hardness and aggression which he passes on. His father Karn (btw, a nice black and tan) was already reputed to produce offspring which sometimes tend to be a bit difficult but Jucan tops that (he is bringing Yoschy from his mother side). The critiques printed in the above link mention that.
A suggestion for your program: There is a V-rated black and tan Karn-son in the U.S. - Hudson von der kalten Hardt. He is a very hard and dominant dog, a BSP-participant and very father typical. Gary Hanrahan had him at his place for a while if I am not mistaken. I know Hudson and his brother Hutch (also a BSP-participant) personally from Germany. I do not have anything invested in him, just trying to be objective but he is worth looking into. I hope that he will be trialed to his potential. If not, it is of no fault of his own, he is just not an easy dog, typical Karn-offspring.
Chris
by Silbersee on 11 July 2010 - 03:07
I just found another nice black and tan/red workingline: www.tjaernshaget.de/miro.htm . Miro's famous father, of course is also a black and tan. So, there are plenty of black and tan/red dogs in the workinglines.
by nonacona60 on 11 July 2010 - 03:07
IN MY OPINION, I don't believe that any decent breeders are measured by self respect or the color of dog they breed...Any type of breeder can have self respect, but the big question, does that same breeder have the respect of others....A good respected Breeder, regardless if its workingline or showline, does not need a "color sales pitch" to sell puppies....unless of course they are breeding litter after litter.
I am not going to say, "IT IS," or "IT IS NOT THIS or THAT"...However I will say, ITS MY OPINION , not meaning it is right, nor am I am saying it is wrong.. ITS JUST AN OPINION, not an issue to cause an argument...
I am not going to say, "IT IS," or "IT IS NOT THIS or THAT"...However I will say, ITS MY OPINION , not meaning it is right, nor am I am saying it is wrong.. ITS JUST AN OPINION, not an issue to cause an argument...
by darylehret on 11 July 2010 - 08:07
Maybe it is a stretch what I stated about Bomber, I don't really follow popular stud dogs. If you look at working-dog.eu there are fourteen posted presently, while Javir has a mere four. Between December'09 and March this year, Bomber was utilitzed for no less than two dozen breedings. I have no idea about Javir in the same timeframe.
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/38773/Bomber%20vom%20Wolfsheim/
www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/37820/Javir%20vom%20Talka%20Marda/
by Silbersee on 11 July 2010 - 12:07
Yes, Bomber has been used but at least a third (if not more) are foreign breeders - outside Germany. His owner knows how to market it and makes sure he puts these announcements up. You have to be a premium (paying) member of that site to use that feature. So, a lot of stud dog owners do not announce breedings on working-dog.eu . The true lists are on SID (unless there are some foreign breedings which do not have to go through the SV breed book office).
IMO, a good producing stud dog can be judged by who is using him. That holds true in the showline world and should not be different with workinglines. The kennels that consistently produce top dogs are very selective where they go.
SV stud news:
In May, Bomber had 5 breedings (1 from Belgium, 4 Germany), Eliot had 7 breedings (1 from Belgium - Koos, 6 from Germany), Javir had 5 (all from foreign countries), good old Uno still had 3 (Germans don't like to go to old dogs unless they are top producers).
In April, Bomber only got 2 breedings (one Germany, one Belgium), Eliot 6 (4 Germany, two outside - one of them Koos again), Javir only one this time.
Dogs in Germany can only be used 60 times for German females and 30 times for outside foreign females within one year. The breedings have to be spread evenly and violations can be costly as the SV fines the owners and bans the dogs for three month periods with repeated offense. So, owners are cautious and may refuse breedings for a month or so to make sure they are within their allowable limits and timeframes. Workingline breeders usually do not run into these problems but it is common among showline breeders.
Anyway, Bomber is really not any more popular than a few others, especially Eliot and Javir.
Chris
IMO, a good producing stud dog can be judged by who is using him. That holds true in the showline world and should not be different with workinglines. The kennels that consistently produce top dogs are very selective where they go.
SV stud news:
In May, Bomber had 5 breedings (1 from Belgium, 4 Germany), Eliot had 7 breedings (1 from Belgium - Koos, 6 from Germany), Javir had 5 (all from foreign countries), good old Uno still had 3 (Germans don't like to go to old dogs unless they are top producers).
In April, Bomber only got 2 breedings (one Germany, one Belgium), Eliot 6 (4 Germany, two outside - one of them Koos again), Javir only one this time.
Dogs in Germany can only be used 60 times for German females and 30 times for outside foreign females within one year. The breedings have to be spread evenly and violations can be costly as the SV fines the owners and bans the dogs for three month periods with repeated offense. So, owners are cautious and may refuse breedings for a month or so to make sure they are within their allowable limits and timeframes. Workingline breeders usually do not run into these problems but it is common among showline breeders.
Anyway, Bomber is really not any more popular than a few others, especially Eliot and Javir.
Chris
by Gustav on 11 July 2010 - 12:07
Good info, Chris.
by eichenluft on 11 July 2010 - 12:07
Thanks Chris, excellent and interesting information.
molly
molly
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