"Delicate subject" - Page 3

 I get sick and tired of "breeding to better the breed" as it is bullshit plain and simple. Look at the dogs in almost any working dogs pedigree. If you have any of the really powerful dogs are your dogs better than they were ? Could they EVER be better than what those dogs were ? If you answer yes, you are a kennel blind idiot. 

Every once in a while in EU there are genetic anomalies born. They recognize them for what they are and use them. Here, the dog is too strong and gets neutered or sent back to the breeder, sent to a police dept the black hole of genetics, or is owned by someone that has no interest in the sport, or is put down.

Yes, if someone wanted to buy an entire litter, who is to say that they are horrible people ?? 

As far as EU, they are not scattered to the four winds like we are. As a population, we have ( being generous ) maybe 5000 people here in the states. If we are really really lucky, there is more than one sport club in our area, and we get to see maybe 20 dogs being worked again, IF we are lucky. The average breeder in EU can go on a weekend and crush that number in one day. They are not breeding to the winner, the popular, the whatever, they are breeding to dogs that they have seen probably the dogs whole life. They saw the parents working and know way more than we do. That is their advantage. That is why they crush us. They do not get all emotional about who their stud dog breeds to, they breed the dog. 

Here in the states.............. c'mon there are some nice dogs, but where are our super strong dogs ?

 Jeff, as generations go on, the "newer" ones become the "older" ones that everyone remembers as the strong, powerful ones. It just takes time. No, of course you can't say that the pup in front of you is better than all those dogs, but if you strive to make them an even better improvement on their parents, you are certainly headed in the right direction. 

We will never all agree on who is the "best" of course, but I don't think all is lost, either. We're at a turning point, IMO, and if we play our cards right, I think we will have some decent dogs for a few years yet to come. I may be too optimistic, but I'm not talking about the mainstream breeding programs; I'm talking about the ones w/the cult followings; the people who have been at this for years and years and don't follow the trends and change their dogs into the flavor of the month. 

Jeff is right.  

We do have SOME breeders who are breeding good and strong working dogs,  but they are in the minority.  It's just so much easier to find a good dog/pup in Europe.  Like he said, the depth of quality and the depth of experience cannot be matched here, at least not yet.  If you are looking for a serious competition prospect pup, young dog, or a  trained mature dog,  your odds are higher of finding one in Europe.

I am amazed at the arrogance and the kennel blindness of many breeders who claim they are "bettering the breed" especially when I see the fear biting lawn ornament crap that regularly comes out of their kennels - but the dogs they breed are really good at the flying trot and running around the ring in one direction.  Or the dogs they are breeding are real pretty dark sables with big heads but are lower drive dogs well suited for the average American who only wants to do something with their dog  when they are bored with whatever is on TV. 

For way too many years Americans who wanted a true working line German Shepherd had no choice but to go to Europe.  Unfortunately too many American breeders bastardized the breed and moved it so far away from what a GSD is supposed to be to the mess that is the American Show Shepherd because they actually believed they were "bettering the breed".   We all know what a clusterf*** that turned into.

Now some breeders are working very hard to establish working line kennels but it's difficult considering the absolute lack of trust so many rightly have for what for years passed for a GSD in this country.   Also the breeders breeding dogs for competition are taking their bitches to Europe anyway, there really are less than a handful of breeders who have established an American line of working dogs and even these dogs go back to European lines in the 2nd or 3rd generation back.

Niesla,
My response was to Guppyfry about the claim that breeding is a business for some overseas. I think that there are a much greater number of people here in the U.S. that are in it as a "business".

Sue,
I also agree with you that we have very good dogs here, and good people trying to produce them.
Where we have a tougher time is that we are a big country, with a lot of people, a lot of dogs, a lot of opinions, less longevity of higher quality breeding, and very spread out. Overall, it makes things much tougher here.
Plus, if it's from "over there" it has to be better!

The other things is, there will always be "kennel blindness" just like there will always be taxes. On the other hand, sometimes what one calls kennel blindness is just a difference of opinion as to what a good dog is. GSDPack and Jenni are very good examples of people that, when they do breed, are really trying to produce a high quality, versatile dog that anyone would be proud to own. (I know there are many others also) The thing is, though, the dogs they produce some people may not want. That isn't kennel blindness, it's a difference of opinion.

 I think it's totally different, as Jeff and OGBS both said, over here than over there. Here, we are a cult, those of us who are "into" dogs like this. We are few and far between when you measure us against the general population. Over there, it's not so strange, clubs are closer, more people are into it; it's a way of life. Of course, the majority of dogs over there are "better" than the MAJORITY of dogs here.

However, I don't believe that there are no breeders here trying to do a good job and turn things around. I really don't. And I further agree w/OGBS that a difference of opinion is always going to be a sticking point. I have bred several pups who were not what people asked for. They had been warned that it might not happen, but one can never tell. So, I returned their deposit and put the dog in a home that was looking for a little more dog. Everyone walks away happy.

I think the difference is that a breeder in it for business is more likely to give the public what they want (probably what Sue is complaining about) than someone breeding occasional, well-planned litters for  a specific purpose and simply selling the excess pups. Like I said, until my bitches have only one pup at a time, I don't have much choice but to sell the others...I don't think that makes me a bad person or a puppy mill. I also don't think that the difference of opinion is as responsible for the poor examples we see as pure greed and ignorance. I think exposure is another thing different over here; I have people call me about pups who have absolutely no idea that anything besides pet quality Am. bred GSDs exist. The puppy mill mentality breeders thrive on this ignorance. In Europe, you can't really get away with that; people know better. 

Personally when I want to buy a dog I want to buy the best dog I can afford, and I don't care where it comes from.  The thing is most of the best dogs come from Europe, or were bred in Europe and whelped here, or are 100% European lines, hands down, no contest.

I read all of your comments carefully, thank you. I agree that if you want a good German line dog, it’s easier to import him from Germany. Germans are not stupid, and they wouldn’t sell their best dogs into US. If they would we would have the best puppies’ right here. As with American line dogs, the best ones are unobtainable. A friend of mine just offered $10K for a great adolescent and been turned down. Breeders keep the best dogs for themselves. And isn’t it the way it supposed to be?
 
When we raise our litters and sell our pups, we have some kind of control of their future. If pups have some issues we may sell them as pets on spay-neuter contract, etc. We know which the best of the litter are, what are their characters, etc. So the question is still open, would you sell your pups wholesale to anybody who wants to distribute them further?

I want to assure you that I would support anybody who wants to import the best dogs into US. And for me it’s different if you import grown up, tested, trained dog or a pup with a potential directly. People who are into GSDs, they know which pups/dogs and from what lines to buy. They research well before they commit to buying the puppy.

But still, is it responsible to sell/import whole litters to a retailer so Mr. Smith from far in the sticks can get himself an “import” no questions asked? Would you do it? For me it looks more like buying a puppy “from a reputable breeder” in the pet store, just the online one. What “reputable breeder” sales their puppies in the pet store? Do you know any?

First of all I want to say I am sick of the Notion that "German Imports" are better dogs.  Better raised etc.  They were culling when we were still raising the pups with the miss marks.  And the idea that Every dog in Germany has its hips and elbows xrayed...hummmmmmmmmm  Who started the hip  xrays.....was it the US or Germany.  We need to remember when East German Dogs were bred simply to guard the wall.  Hips...temperament.....inbreeding....were not big concerns.  They just wanted biting guards on the wall.  It was not about the "betterment of the breed".  So the Germans made a harder dog......of sorts.  There are breeders in both countrys of merit.  Our job is to know who they are if we are going to buy and breed.  I personally still think this is America and I can do what I want.  So if I buy two puppies instead of just one I am a hoarder or a puppy mill.  I personally don't buy or sell whole litters.  But I know people that have and for reasons NOT EVEN MENTIONED IN THIS FORUM.  And yes it was business...and it was for breeding...and it was for all the same reasons we buy and sell pups here.  People all assume its brokering...and we head straight to the puppy mill conclusion or the Bad uncaring breeder.  German dogs have their share of problems the same as American dogs.  But if I wanted a whole litter.....it would be my right to buy it.  And it would be the dogs worlds job to jump on board immediately and assume the worst.  Maybe people worry so much because they arethinking about their own "breeding/selling/buying ethics.  Usually people that expect the worst.......tend to get it.

I remember when I used my first German Import Stud Dog. I won't mention lines. I had a champion American bred bitch. She had everything I wanted, but was a little soft in temperament. She of course also had enough rear end for two. The resulting litter of 7 pups were fabulous. Yes it was an OUT CROSS breeding..so attention to future breedings would be prudent. My point is I didn't want just a pretty face....nor did I want Cujo. That cross is my favorite to this day....and I have a great grand daughter of that breeding. She guards the gate....and helps me bring in the horses at night. She works the back. My German/American cross was every thing that I wanted those pups to be. At the time...you'd think I just robbed a bank. My litter was down nosed...until the pups proved themselves. Even then....people get so snobby about pedigree's.....and titles. And you know as well as I do...give any breed of dog to the human race....and we will f... it up within 15 years of improving the breed!!!