The prices for dogs have gotten out of hand - Page 3

 Kelly, you brought up the next point I struggle with; how do you separate your dogs from "those" dogs? I know we have different lines entirely, but you and I seem to share a basic philosophy; we both seem to do "more" than average and have a higher standard of the "total package" when breeding. Why shouldn't our puppies cost more?

What worries me sometimes is by not distinguishing them from "working line litter X out of average pets w/decent pedigrees" that I am actually possibly shortchanging the puppy. The goal is to get every pup into the best possible home; I breed these dogs because I want to preserve this type dog, but I can't keep them all for myself. Sometimes I wish they had one per litter, lol. So, the best I can do is try to point out quality and hope that quality people take notice and choose my pup over a litter that no thought/work/time/planning has gone into. 

Thank you also for reiterating that there is no voodoo or magic involved in teaching a dog not to eat food offered from strangers. Just another OB exercise. 

This is really laughable that you people think this is such an impossible task, or even a hard one. Trust, time, dedication, communication. Easy.

Daryl, I have an idea to help you get over your need to make snide remarks to me on anything and everything.
http://www.extenze.com/

Never said it was hard or easy, for me it would be pointless to train.  But a "deserved" shooting of every dog that takes food from anyone but it's handler was about the stupidest thing you could possibly suggest.

However, the market for puppies is quickly becoming a problem all breeders will face. The market has been going up and up for years, worsened when the dollar crashed but as the dollar recuperates prices remain the same. With puppies, you have market worth and you have actual worth. I look at a very well bred, attractice, but pet/performance quality dog and I think, "$1500". But the current market has breeders selling puppies of equal quality for $2,500-3,500. This means BYBs and puppy farmers are growing enough balls to ask $1,000-$1,500 for puppies who were being sold for $500 only a few years ago. So what are the choices? Price your puppies lower and risk them being viewed as lower quality, or ask the market price and feel like a crook on the inside. (at least that's how I would feel). Add to this the continuing worsening economy in the US and an inevitable crash in puppy prices will come, and I predict everyone from BYBs to top breeders will feel the ripples.

KCzaja...that is a great point made.  I have noticed that now many dogs that would be just pets are being sold for $1500 with working pups being sold at the same price and even more.  That isa  lot of money for puppies when everyone has said that with a puppy it is a crap shoot in terms of hwo the dog will be despite the amount of training you put in.  It makes it seem like it's the pedigree and not the training that makes the dog.  I know that I have to remind myself that it is the trainer I align myself with and how much training me and the puppy do that will determine how he performs.  I am seeing a lot more puppies going for $2500+ now though.  

And correctly stated how long does the avg breeder hold out until they have to raise their prices b/c people who don't know any better think price means quality.  Also there are many owners that don't care about titles and that can hurt the breeder as well.  People often say that titles aren't that big of a thing but breeders always point to titles when talking about the pedigeee of puppies.

Ace, all the training in the world will get you nowhere without proper genetics. A phenomenal trainer can make a shitty dog *look* ok in normal circumstances, but you put any pressure on that dog at all and you're back to what you started with. Pointless to bother with all that training, really, when you don't have the genetics. Notice I'm not saying "pedigree," I'm saying "genetics." I don't need to see papers to tell you what a dog is genetically; in fact, if people would evaluate the DOG first, and THEN see how it's bred, we'd probably be better off.

Daryl, you're really not picking up what I'm putting down. Now you're saying "every dog" when I have repeatedly explained in the simplest terms possible THE THREAD WAS DISCUSSING TRAINED PERSONAL PROTECTION DOGS.   I was, therefore, referring to TRAINED PERSONAL PROTECTION DOGS when making my statement regarding food refusal (which I stand by; any dog you call a PPD, in my book, better at least display basic skills, and food refusal from strangers is one. Yes, perhaps my standards of what constitutes a PPD are a bit higher than most....I'm starting to think that is the case based on a few emails I've received lately. Perhaps that's another thread in the works.

THIS thread was about PRICES of dogs.

Yes, perhaps my standards of what constitutes a PPD are a bit higher than most....I'm starting to think that is the case based on a few emails I've received lately. Perhaps that's another thread in the works.

Lovely.  Can't wait to hear you talk that subject up.  Maybe you could lower your overhead by reloading your own bullets.  Better yet, you should just raise your prices and shoot the critics, so we don't have to hear you justify why.

I've spent as much as $3000 just as willingly as I've spent half that amount, if it's for the pup I know I want.  I'd say evaluate the dog (& family) first, THEN consider the price.

I don't know what to say about those astronomical prices though, if anyone is even actually paying those amounts.  If they were, you'd think there'd be some public complaints from dissatisfied clients at least on some rare occasion by now.  Do you even know of anyone who's actually claimed to have purchased a dog for $30,000 to $100,000?

I know of someone who purchased a SchH3 titled showline dog for $14,000 that my coworker asked if I'd be interested in.  Of course, you couldn't even give it away to me. My coworker caved in, though, and accepted the dog (for free).

"""""""" I look at a very well bred, attractice, but pet/performance quality dog and I think, "$1500". But the current market has breeders selling puppies of equal quality for $2,500-3,500. This means BYBs and puppy farmers are growing enough balls to ask $1,000-$1,500 for puppies who were being sold for $500 only a few years ago."""""""

I actually have a friend that has puppies that are out of IMPORTED, TITLED, OFA Excellent and "A" stamp parents for sale and can't even move them(there are only 3 now) for $600!  She has 3 young dogs out of a BSP competitor that are 1.5 years old and has not been able to sell them either( there are 3 of these young dogs as well)!  The economy is horrible right now and puppies/young dogs have just not sold for about the last year!

Vickie
www.PowerHausKennels.com

I don't know what to say about those astronomical prices though, if anyone is even actually paying those amounts. If they were, you'd think there'd be some public complaints from dissatisfied clients at least on some rare occasion by now. Do you even know of anyone who's actually claimed to have purchased a dog for $30,000 to $100,000?

There has to be people paying these prices if there are several prices willing to charge these prices.  This particular company was featured on Steven Segal's show and he bought 2 from there.  I would say most would be celebrities, athletes and other wealthy people.

Im sure if the dog wasn't as good as advertised, they wouldn't want to admit they paid that kind of money for a dog that was a dud.  People don't want to be looked as if they were the idiots.  It is like someone getting conned for their money.  They are so embarassed they refuse to tell anyone just from the sheer embarassment of it all.

I actually have a friend that has puppies that are out of IMPORTED, TITLED, OFA Excellent and "A" stamp parents for sale and can't even move them(there are only 3 now) for $600! She has 3 young dogs out of a BSP competitor that are 1.5 years old and has not been able to sell them either( there are 3 of these young dogs as well)! The economy is horrible right now and puppies/young dogs have just not sold for about the last year!

Out of general curosity, do you think they would have a problem moving the pups if they raised their prices?   Do you think the avg person who has been looking around and see's breeders claim that 'great solid and quality pups cost money" think that there is something wrong with pups at $600?

I remember coming across the website for Kreative Kennels and loving some of the dogs they have but for pups at $2500 and up I was like no way.  (Wouldn't mind having their stud dog Charis Leryka though!!)

Vickie, I have to agree w/Ace here. I would see $600 and not even look at whole ad, probably. Honestly, when I see someone advertising dogs/pups that cheap, my only thought is "aw, poor babies." I worry about the homes puppies sold that cheap will go into, which is why I would never advertise them that low. What I have done, however, is allowed people to make payments, and have dramatically cut prices AFTER the good home has committed to buying the dog and has made a diligent effort on the money front. I don't want to appeal to the bargain hunters; I want to appeal to the good, competent homes for the type pups they are, BUT, I understand that many of us are in dire straits financially, so I have no problem making concessions. But I'd bet my last dollar I wouldn't get the same caliber home had I advertised Capri/Ron or Capri/Chico (both V rated, KKL1, titled imports) for any less than $1500. I had a few people ask my why the first litter was "cheap." They expected because she was newly imported and bred in Germany, that I would be asking more. If I were your friend (and I'm not and it's really none of my business, LOL) I would put them at no less than $1000, closer to $1500. Don't let anyone think there's something wrong with them just because they're not sold yet. JMHO.

A big reason I don't go much above $1500 (for an 8wk old) is that I would have a really hard time sleeping at night if people ever aligned me with Kraftwerk and the like. There are still people who don't know any better and give that reprehensible person a lot of money to continue treating dogs the way he does and laughing all the way to the bank. They are commodities to him, nothing more, and I'd really hate for someone just browsing the internet trying to find a working line dog to think we or our dogs are somehow the same, which when you separate yourself too much by higher prices, that's an easy assumption to make.

It really is a double-edged sword for the people who spend big bucks importing really nice quality breeding stock; people really don't understand how much it can cost to get exactly what you want. Let's face it; the good ones don't end up in the US if they're that good, except for a few situations- 1)they're unproven, and you don't mind taking a gamble. Good females may be sold very young if you offer the right money and they don't know if the dog can be bred yet. 2) You have a very close personal friend who can find you a dog and convince the owner to sell it- again, you will PAY  3) The dog is aged and they're finished with it.

Not saying that no good dogs are ever offered for sale- not saying that at all; they are, for lots of reasons. But to make some sweeping generalizations for simplicity's sake, those 3 reasons I outlined are pretty much the only way you get a really top of the line breeding dog at a decent age to the US, and you really will pay a lot of money. Now, if you're willing to accept an unsurveyed, untitled (or "bought" titles), green dog, that's a different story. But if you want top structure, a dog that adheres physically as well as temperamentally to the standard and has that something "extra" be prepared to cough up the dough. Maybe not $30,000, but by the time you pay the exchange rate between the euro and the dollar and get them here, you're well into the $10,000-$15,000 range.


Daryl, I'm starting to think you have a crush on me.

You have to remember there is a ass for every seat. People will buy what they don,t understand every day.

P.T. Barnums favorite quote: " There is a sucker born every minute"