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by MAINLYMAX on 21 July 2010 - 16:07
Breed me a dog, that as soon as I lay the foundation work on him,
I can start working him in Civil drive or Zen drive. ( the Zone)
Some dogs will have their SchH 3, while others are still struggling
with earning their SchH 1.
Start with a well bred dog, and go from there.
I can start working him in Civil drive or Zen drive. ( the Zone)
Some dogs will have their SchH 3, while others are still struggling
with earning their SchH 1.
Start with a well bred dog, and go from there.
by Two Moons on 21 July 2010 - 16:07
Love the Max avitar.....
But it sorta takes away from your image.
Hard to take it seriously.
Just a thought.
But it sorta takes away from your image.
Hard to take it seriously.
Just a thought.
by troublelinx on 21 July 2010 - 17:07
Mainlymax,
Civil is neither drive or behavior. The dog by definition can do nothing "civilly" or "in civil". For example if you were to work my gsd in civil you would agitate her with no equipment. Her reaction would be to slide more towards the spectrum of defense. Picture it like this.
X marks the spot where she is when you work her in prey. She will by her nature still have some defensive behaviors by virtue that she is almost always wanting to bite the person in earnest, but she still is mostly displaying prey behaviors, like a high pitched bark.
Defense_____________________________X_______________Prey
X marks the spot where she is when YOU work her civilly. YOU work her civilly. SHE acts in a more defensive manner.
Defense_______________X_____________________________Prey
Dogs slide back and forth along this scale. Where they are at the moment depends on their past training, temperament and what is happening in training at that particular moment.
As far as confidence goes with good training you can raise the confidence of the dog while working in defense. This is done as I am sure you already know by adding a little pressure or maybe working w/o equipment and then taking her back into prey.
And it really is not a big deal but it is not correct when people use these two words interchangeable (defense and civil). The only reason I am writing about it is because interchanging these two words is a pet peeve of mine. It just kind of gnaws at me. Civil simply means their is no equipment. Civil has nothing to do with the dog and everything to do with the decoy.
Just like Boxing. If I were to train a person in boxing. Prey would be equivalent to punching the bag. Civil would be me boxing in the ring with the other person. Defense would be how the trainee feels when they are worried about getting hit or hurt or some type of feeling that they are in some type of danger. Prey would also be when they are not at all worried but they are beating their opponent. Not sure if this is a good analogy in comparison too a dog but kind of sort of.
In summary when you talk about "civil drive" you are actually referencing "defense drive". Now some people speak of building fight drive. However I am not totally sold on that actually being a drive. People can persist in referring to it being a drive but it just is not so. If a decoy refers to anything being "civil drive" they would not be training my dog.
"J" wrote above
"when it comes to talking about dogs "drives" i refer to the book "Der Schutzhund" by Helmut Raiser. in it he describes and explains 4 drives that pertain to dogs. Prey, defense and avoidance behavior, aggression , and fight. "
J is absolutely correct in what he is saying.
What book or video or person of supreme k9 knowledge is refering to "civil" as a drive. This just boggles the mind. Open a dog book watch a video civil always references the actions of the decoy.
Dirt Diggler
Civil is neither drive or behavior. The dog by definition can do nothing "civilly" or "in civil". For example if you were to work my gsd in civil you would agitate her with no equipment. Her reaction would be to slide more towards the spectrum of defense. Picture it like this.
X marks the spot where she is when you work her in prey. She will by her nature still have some defensive behaviors by virtue that she is almost always wanting to bite the person in earnest, but she still is mostly displaying prey behaviors, like a high pitched bark.
Defense_____________________________X_______________Prey
X marks the spot where she is when YOU work her civilly. YOU work her civilly. SHE acts in a more defensive manner.
Defense_______________X_____________________________Prey
Dogs slide back and forth along this scale. Where they are at the moment depends on their past training, temperament and what is happening in training at that particular moment.
As far as confidence goes with good training you can raise the confidence of the dog while working in defense. This is done as I am sure you already know by adding a little pressure or maybe working w/o equipment and then taking her back into prey.
And it really is not a big deal but it is not correct when people use these two words interchangeable (defense and civil). The only reason I am writing about it is because interchanging these two words is a pet peeve of mine. It just kind of gnaws at me. Civil simply means their is no equipment. Civil has nothing to do with the dog and everything to do with the decoy.
Just like Boxing. If I were to train a person in boxing. Prey would be equivalent to punching the bag. Civil would be me boxing in the ring with the other person. Defense would be how the trainee feels when they are worried about getting hit or hurt or some type of feeling that they are in some type of danger. Prey would also be when they are not at all worried but they are beating their opponent. Not sure if this is a good analogy in comparison too a dog but kind of sort of.
In summary when you talk about "civil drive" you are actually referencing "defense drive". Now some people speak of building fight drive. However I am not totally sold on that actually being a drive. People can persist in referring to it being a drive but it just is not so. If a decoy refers to anything being "civil drive" they would not be training my dog.
"J" wrote above
"when it comes to talking about dogs "drives" i refer to the book "Der Schutzhund" by Helmut Raiser. in it he describes and explains 4 drives that pertain to dogs. Prey, defense and avoidance behavior, aggression , and fight. "
J is absolutely correct in what he is saying.
What book or video or person of supreme k9 knowledge is refering to "civil" as a drive. This just boggles the mind. Open a dog book watch a video civil always references the actions of the decoy.
Dirt Diggler
by MAINLYMAX on 21 July 2010 - 17:07
DDiggler,
Prey and defence drive are both going to raise the aggression levels, but what I
think I am seeing, is people getting way to fragmented and not seeing civil as a zone or
a center on the dog not the trainer. Micheal Jordan has a zone he works in. While some of
us play basketball by fallowing the fundamentally sound techniques we are taught to fallow,
until pressure is put on us and we revert back to are sloppy but effective techniques. But you
can't compete with Micheal when he is in his zone. Look at the kind of pressure he has to contend
with and than watch him play without regard to his surroundings.
You are very close to saying what I have said civil drive means. I hope Gary Hanrahan returns and competes
again. He has a feel for the zone with his dogs. The problem is first you need a good dog to get into the zone
with. Civil drive (the zone)
Two Moons,
If I look like an ageing bald guy, badly in need of a laxative then my
Avatar is right on. Have I missed the mark? Other wise the phone keeps
ringing and those beautiful women won't let me alone.
Prey and defence drive are both going to raise the aggression levels, but what I
think I am seeing, is people getting way to fragmented and not seeing civil as a zone or
a center on the dog not the trainer. Micheal Jordan has a zone he works in. While some of
us play basketball by fallowing the fundamentally sound techniques we are taught to fallow,
until pressure is put on us and we revert back to are sloppy but effective techniques. But you
can't compete with Micheal when he is in his zone. Look at the kind of pressure he has to contend
with and than watch him play without regard to his surroundings.
You are very close to saying what I have said civil drive means. I hope Gary Hanrahan returns and competes
again. He has a feel for the zone with his dogs. The problem is first you need a good dog to get into the zone
with. Civil drive (the zone)
Two Moons,
If I look like an ageing bald guy, badly in need of a laxative then my
Avatar is right on. Have I missed the mark? Other wise the phone keeps
ringing and those beautiful women won't let me alone.
by Two Moons on 21 July 2010 - 17:07
LOL...........
Whatever works I guess.
Womens minds are mysterious things.
I'd still change the avatar if you want to be taken seriously when talking about dogs.
It's a bit much.
Do what you like, I just know what my first impression was.
Moons.
Whatever works I guess.
Womens minds are mysterious things.
I'd still change the avatar if you want to be taken seriously when talking about dogs.
It's a bit much.
Do what you like, I just know what my first impression was.
Moons.
by MAINLYMAX on 21 July 2010 - 18:07
Two Moons,
I thought about a Chimpanzee sitting on a toilet reading a newspaper,
but that's already been taken, or a sock puppet to late for one to. So I
thought the founder of the SV sporting a french goat may be my calling.
If you are a movie buff and remember the Kid wearing the karate getup in "Smokin Aces".
The scene were he is intimidating the guy in the bathtub with his Nun-chucks, and gets
a little boner. I laughed so hard that I thought I was going to have to call the Paramedics
before went into a seizure. I can't find a good picture of him though. One where he is
not in that bathtub scene. But I'm open to suggestions. I thought until I started charging
for commentary, just about anything goes. And no one here is troubled by the Colonel.
I always read your commentary, I would not care if your avitar was a huge naked butt hanging
out a window. I don't always take you seriously though. LOL..... I like your sense of humor.
I thought about a Chimpanzee sitting on a toilet reading a newspaper,
but that's already been taken, or a sock puppet to late for one to. So I
thought the founder of the SV sporting a french goat may be my calling.
If you are a movie buff and remember the Kid wearing the karate getup in "Smokin Aces".
The scene were he is intimidating the guy in the bathtub with his Nun-chucks, and gets
a little boner. I laughed so hard that I thought I was going to have to call the Paramedics
before went into a seizure. I can't find a good picture of him though. One where he is
not in that bathtub scene. But I'm open to suggestions. I thought until I started charging
for commentary, just about anything goes. And no one here is troubled by the Colonel.
I always read your commentary, I would not care if your avitar was a huge naked butt hanging
out a window. I don't always take you seriously though. LOL..... I like your sense of humor.
by MAINLYMAX on 21 July 2010 - 18:07
Here we go, I will change my name to.............. RitalinDeficit.......... formally known as MainlyMax.
by troublelinx on 21 July 2010 - 20:07
Sounds like he is just a wee little boy!
by MAINLYMAX on 21 July 2010 - 20:07
Oh no !......... you see a boy, anywhere, you kick his butt and send him home.
If you have read the commentary and have understood it, I would have to be
some one much older with a great deal of experience. But you will have to
make up your own mind. One thing I have found though is a lack humor,
with some police and sheriffs. But I don't take it personal.
If you have read the commentary and have understood it, I would have to be
some one much older with a great deal of experience. But you will have to
make up your own mind. One thing I have found though is a lack humor,
with some police and sheriffs. But I don't take it personal.
by troublelinx on 21 July 2010 - 20:07
mind is made
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