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by NoCurs on 19 July 2010 - 23:07
Not to be "difficult" but those two shots show a dog with half bites. No fault of the dog, its hellish hard to get "full" bites on a suit. I don't disagree with you at all; I'm sure the F ring folks WANT full bites, but they just rarely get them due to the nature of the game. (May I just say I adore F Ring and Schutzhund equally, having titled in both)
by MAINLYMAX on 20 July 2010 - 00:07
NoCurs,
It does look that way, you are not being difficult. One of the best dogs for catching the
the decoy and throwing him flat on his ass is Azar. You have to watch his videos. But for full grips
I think Top gun or Udex are very good dogs. To really appreciate them you have see there trials with the
object guards, rattan sticks and fast decoys.
It does look that way, you are not being difficult. One of the best dogs for catching the
the decoy and throwing him flat on his ass is Azar. You have to watch his videos. But for full grips
I think Top gun or Udex are very good dogs. To really appreciate them you have see there trials with the
object guards, rattan sticks and fast decoys.
by malndobe on 20 July 2010 - 00:07
When I said
if you can teach a forced retrieve and hold with an ecollar, why couldn't you teach a "force bite"
I wasn't talking about any specific dogs, just the concept. Sam has the right idea. The dogs I was talking about had the drive and desire to bite, the collar was used to improve the grips under pressure, by teaching the dog to counter forward. It's not the same, but is similar to how a collar would be used for a retrieve/hold. That's really all the further I'm comfortable taking the discussion, I didn't train these dogs, just had technique discussions with their owners. I understand the techniques used, but don't want to get into a "question/answer" discussion, other then to bring up that gripping behavior can be trained.
Actually, taking that thought one step further, another example of gripping behavior being trained is when grips are ruined through training. They are being trained, just trained badly, the wrong way.
if you can teach a forced retrieve and hold with an ecollar, why couldn't you teach a "force bite"
I wasn't talking about any specific dogs, just the concept. Sam has the right idea. The dogs I was talking about had the drive and desire to bite, the collar was used to improve the grips under pressure, by teaching the dog to counter forward. It's not the same, but is similar to how a collar would be used for a retrieve/hold. That's really all the further I'm comfortable taking the discussion, I didn't train these dogs, just had technique discussions with their owners. I understand the techniques used, but don't want to get into a "question/answer" discussion, other then to bring up that gripping behavior can be trained.
Actually, taking that thought one step further, another example of gripping behavior being trained is when grips are ruined through training. They are being trained, just trained badly, the wrong way.
by MAINLYMAX on 20 July 2010 - 01:07
Malndobe,
Sorry to put you on the spot, Sounds like Jim's done some bite work
to focus the dog with the e collar. I think this is what you were alluding to. I would say teach a
" full bite", and hold on. Which is not unusual at all. But you may be having to try to do a
reclamation job on what may have been a good dog to begin with. Somewhere along the
way someone screwed the dog up. That to is not uncommon. I thought you were hiding
a Fr Ring technque invoving the e-collar.
Sorry to put you on the spot, Sounds like Jim's done some bite work
to focus the dog with the e collar. I think this is what you were alluding to. I would say teach a
" full bite", and hold on. Which is not unusual at all. But you may be having to try to do a
reclamation job on what may have been a good dog to begin with. Somewhere along the
way someone screwed the dog up. That to is not uncommon. I thought you were hiding
a Fr Ring technque invoving the e-collar.
by NoCurs on 20 July 2010 - 02:07
Not as a commentary on "training methods", but rather on inborn/useful drives, I would have to say that just as I wouldn't touch a puppy out of a dog which had to be forced to retrieve, I can't even begin to imagine wanting a pup out of a dog which had to have electric shock to bite well!
by darylehret on 20 July 2010 - 02:07
And want to breed on that even less so!
by malndobe on 20 July 2010 - 05:07
MainlyMax has a point
"This decoy is moving away from the dog and trying to avert the bite."
These are photos of my dog from an FR trial about 2 weeks ago.
Based on these photos you might think he has a frontal or 1/2 bite. Reality is the decoys were constantly "running" away from the bite, making sure he could never get his body straightened out to them so he'd have a chance to regrip. This is not unsual in French Ring, especially with the harder biting dogs, the decoys generally aren't going to give the dogs a chance to really punch in and hurt them.
This is the same dog with decoys who weren't trying to escape the bite
IMO the best exercise in a Ring routine to judge grips is the guard of object. And even then, you have to be able to read the dogs because the pressure put on some dogs to make them stay with the basket will effect their gripping. But it's the only exercise in FR where the decoy has to just stand there for 5 seconds and let the dog bite (once the dog has bit), without trying to work the dog or get away from the pressure of the grip.
Most people in FR do value a full grip, however I have met some over the years who don't. Who's attitude is that the fuller the bite, the slower the out. The people I first started doing Ring with had that attitude, and would actually work the dogs in a manner to make them bite with a 1/2-3/4 grip, in a style that I call "bite and endure". Basically get a grip, and hold on TIGHT for the ride. I still meet trainers on occasion with that attitude, but the majority do want a full grip. Push vs pull seems to be about 50/50.
"This decoy is moving away from the dog and trying to avert the bite."
These are photos of my dog from an FR trial about 2 weeks ago.
Based on these photos you might think he has a frontal or 1/2 bite. Reality is the decoys were constantly "running" away from the bite, making sure he could never get his body straightened out to them so he'd have a chance to regrip. This is not unsual in French Ring, especially with the harder biting dogs, the decoys generally aren't going to give the dogs a chance to really punch in and hurt them.
This is the same dog with decoys who weren't trying to escape the bite
IMO the best exercise in a Ring routine to judge grips is the guard of object. And even then, you have to be able to read the dogs because the pressure put on some dogs to make them stay with the basket will effect their gripping. But it's the only exercise in FR where the decoy has to just stand there for 5 seconds and let the dog bite (once the dog has bit), without trying to work the dog or get away from the pressure of the grip.
Most people in FR do value a full grip, however I have met some over the years who don't. Who's attitude is that the fuller the bite, the slower the out. The people I first started doing Ring with had that attitude, and would actually work the dogs in a manner to make them bite with a 1/2-3/4 grip, in a style that I call "bite and endure". Basically get a grip, and hold on TIGHT for the ride. I still meet trainers on occasion with that attitude, but the majority do want a full grip. Push vs pull seems to be about 50/50.
by MAINLYMAX on 20 July 2010 - 14:07
Malndobe,
Excellent feedback, My favorite thing in Fr Ring is when the decoy runs on to
the field and does his /hers turn around. And starts clacking their bamboo sticks, Tat,Tat, tat, Tat.....
The dogs go ape shit for that. The Malinois look like there about to come unglued. Love to
watch these dogs. I've always thought the Fr Ring dogs were very tough, and hard dogs. But
that alone won't get a Ring3 on your dog. He has to be smart as well.
Fr Ring goes 1,2,3 And Belgium Ring goes 3,2,1 1 being the highest in BR...... and 3 being the highest in FRR
I wish there was only one ring sport, but there is a big difference between the two. Belgium ring will change their
program every year to keep there reality of it alive. I think this make it the hardest of the dog sports, besides
just being Ring sport which is hard to begin with.
Excellent feedback, My favorite thing in Fr Ring is when the decoy runs on to
the field and does his /hers turn around. And starts clacking their bamboo sticks, Tat,Tat, tat, Tat.....
The dogs go ape shit for that. The Malinois look like there about to come unglued. Love to
watch these dogs. I've always thought the Fr Ring dogs were very tough, and hard dogs. But
that alone won't get a Ring3 on your dog. He has to be smart as well.
Fr Ring goes 1,2,3 And Belgium Ring goes 3,2,1 1 being the highest in BR...... and 3 being the highest in FRR
I wish there was only one ring sport, but there is a big difference between the two. Belgium ring will change their
program every year to keep there reality of it alive. I think this make it the hardest of the dog sports, besides
just being Ring sport which is hard to begin with.
by BabyEagle4U on 23 July 2010 - 00:07
nice pictures
by Slamdunc on 06 August 2010 - 22:08
bump
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