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by YogieBear on 14 June 2010 - 22:06
Attitude? That's just funny :-) I think that is a funny comment - Who wants somebody participating in a trial that is a trouble maker from the start - Bad attitude makes for alot of crap in a trial.... Bickering from the start. I like a club trials atmosphere to be happy and fun and if you got a bad apple in the pot before you start - it makes for a very unpleasant trial. as far as the field - that is a plus - but your dog should be conditioned for any field - but when a club is putting together its plans for the trial - they aren't saying hey we got a nice field so "lets charge more"...they are looking at expenses that they are going to incure -
Are we looking at a schutzhund trial? If 50 dogs compete at a trial, and you charge $50.00 entry
that's $2500. which should cover the cost. if we are, I am sorry - but 50 dogs can't compete - 12 dogs max per day per judge - these calculations are flaud for schutzhund - that would be a huge schutzhund trial - and need several judges to do 50 dogs.and over several days. 2500 wouldnt cover it..... .
As far as charging spectators - not in a schutzhund trial - not in my opinion - but for a paid event such as a seminar, helper seminar, etc....I don't care if the girls or guys have on 4 inch heels/black mini skirt - you are there... you pay..... Leave the non dog people at home.....
Yogie
Are we looking at a schutzhund trial? If 50 dogs compete at a trial, and you charge $50.00 entry
that's $2500. which should cover the cost. if we are, I am sorry - but 50 dogs can't compete - 12 dogs max per day per judge - these calculations are flaud for schutzhund - that would be a huge schutzhund trial - and need several judges to do 50 dogs.and over several days. 2500 wouldnt cover it..... .
As far as charging spectators - not in a schutzhund trial - not in my opinion - but for a paid event such as a seminar, helper seminar, etc....I don't care if the girls or guys have on 4 inch heels/black mini skirt - you are there... you pay..... Leave the non dog people at home.....
Yogie
by Mystere on 14 June 2010 - 23:06
1. Charging spectators is bs, JMHO. That club is the only one, AFAIK, in the whole region and British Columbia that actually charges spectators at its trials. Granted, the charge is relatively miniscule ($5, last I knew). Nevertheless, that is precisely why I have never bothered to attend one of their trials. Clubs should be glad to have people support their events by showing up. 
2. Charging visitors who are want their dogs worked, using club resources (equipment, helper, risk to helper, etc) is not an issue, IMO. Entrants for trials, OTOH, is a different subject. I only know of two clubs in this region that charged competitors at their trials to practice on the field prior to their trials. One has been kaput for years. The other did it, AFAIK, because it "imported" helpers from out-of-state for its trials and had to defray the costs. That club has been limping along as a "Dead Man Walking" for the better part of this century.
FWIW: in my region, generally spectators are charged a nominal fee ($5) at helper seminars, unless they bring a dog for the helpers to practice on. In that case, they attend free. That system promotes /encourages the provision of additional dogs for the helper seminar.
2. Charging visitors who are want their dogs worked, using club resources (equipment, helper, risk to helper, etc) is not an issue, IMO. Entrants for trials, OTOH, is a different subject. I only know of two clubs in this region that charged competitors at their trials to practice on the field prior to their trials. One has been kaput for years. The other did it, AFAIK, because it "imported" helpers from out-of-state for its trials and had to defray the costs. That club has been limping along as a "Dead Man Walking" for the better part of this century.
FWIW: in my region, generally spectators are charged a nominal fee ($5) at helper seminars, unless they bring a dog for the helpers to practice on. In that case, they attend free. That system promotes /encourages the provision of additional dogs for the helper seminar.
by Bark and Hold on 14 June 2010 - 23:06
If I am not mistaken, the original jist of this topic was the "bilking" people... Be it trial entrants, spectators, or whatever. Whether it is a schutzhund trial or helper/seminar certification what difference does it make? Why charge spectators? Don't you want to promote the sport? If you aren't participating in a helper seminar/certification, you really aren't getting a whole lot out of it. But as a helper, if I am trying out to work a big event, or if I am trying to get "upped" in my book, then the handler that brings along a dog for me to work should pay $25 or more? Please...
And as far as people being distractions, well if you want to show at big trials and work big events YOU and your dog better get used to distractions.
And as far as people being distractions, well if you want to show at big trials and work big events YOU and your dog better get used to distractions.
by BabyEagle4U on 14 June 2010 - 23:06
What about starting your own Club to compete with prices ? Or maybe setting up your property to accommodate an already organized or prospected group of people looking for a property to use ?
I thought about this years ago and designated a 5 acre field to nothing but dog training areas. And another 10 for a tracking field. I opened it to the public a couple years ago by word of mouth. Nothing official just my back yard, but people show up throughout the week when ever they want. They bring wood, PVC's and build jumps, they bring their own blinds etc. I think it could be organized. People are leaning more for a Mondioring type thing but either way has potential.
I dunno the first thing about forming a Club, but by the looks of the past year, it doesn't look to hard if the people get together and commit to it. The only expense right now is the gas, and this year they took up a collection, bring the gas and just use my tractors .. helps me out some beings I had to either have turnouts or cut the grass anyhows.. lol
Maybe we need more Clubs ?
I thought about this years ago and designated a 5 acre field to nothing but dog training areas. And another 10 for a tracking field. I opened it to the public a couple years ago by word of mouth. Nothing official just my back yard, but people show up throughout the week when ever they want. They bring wood, PVC's and build jumps, they bring their own blinds etc. I think it could be organized. People are leaning more for a Mondioring type thing but either way has potential.
I dunno the first thing about forming a Club, but by the looks of the past year, it doesn't look to hard if the people get together and commit to it. The only expense right now is the gas, and this year they took up a collection, bring the gas and just use my tractors .. helps me out some beings I had to either have turnouts or cut the grass anyhows.. lol
Maybe we need more Clubs ?
by Wolfinbok on 15 June 2010 - 00:06
Yogi,
The large clubs do a 3 day-er, 12 dogs 36 segments, with another 12 dogs
doing BH or FH, which could be 12 dogs in each. So you can see 50 dogs at a three
day trial for a large club. Of cause the more clubs you have the fewer dogs per trial.
But there is a very good dog trainer in Marysville Calif, Thomas Sauerhoefer, I think he is
a SV judge from Germany. He has titled over 300 dogs. He may be of some help.
The large clubs do a 3 day-er, 12 dogs 36 segments, with another 12 dogs
doing BH or FH, which could be 12 dogs in each. So you can see 50 dogs at a three
day trial for a large club. Of cause the more clubs you have the fewer dogs per trial.
But there is a very good dog trainer in Marysville Calif, Thomas Sauerhoefer, I think he is
a SV judge from Germany. He has titled over 300 dogs. He may be of some help.
by hexe on 15 June 2010 - 00:06
"Mind you, these ladies showed up in high heels, were dressed in street clothes, and had no intention of learning helper work or participating in dog sport."
I'm a bit puzzled by the scenario you described--if it was a seminar, what were people trying out for? If the event truly was a *seminar*, then the ladies in question should absolutely have been charged--just because one isn't wearing a sleeve and catching a dog doesn't mean one is not learning anything. If this was some sort of certification session or a try-out to work an event, OTOH, then I agree that charging these gals anything for being there was ridiculous.
And regardless of whether it was a seminar or a certification or try-out session, wearing high heels in any venue that would be suitable for any of these activities is also ridiculous (and this is being said by a female).
"Why charge spectators? Don't you want to promote the sport? "
On the one hand, there's the 'promote the sport' benefit of having spectators. On the other hand, there's the potential to have in attendance animal rights extremist spectator, the fanatical anti-bitework spectator, and the ego-challenged 'I want a bad-ass dog that will bite' spectator--and while charging a spectator fee won't necessarily discourage any of these, it surely isn't likely to draw them in as easily as having no fee might. Then there's the whole liability issue to consider as well, in these litigious days we live in.
"If you aren't participating in a helper seminar/certification, you really aren't getting a whole lot out of it."
Hmm. Can't say I agree with that. You're probably not going to get out of what you would as a participant, but an awful lot can be learned from observation. I can see the point of charging a nominal--like $10-15 a head--fee to observers at seminars, as long as the observers are going to be able to have a clear line of sight for the activity AND be able to hear what's being said by both the participants and the person(s) giving the seminar.
$100.00 is awfully high for an entry fee to a club-level trial, unless it includes meals or something, but as someone else already pointed out, there's a limit to the number of dogs that can be judged, so that limits the amount of money a club can take in to cover the expenses of putting on a trial. The club I belonged to back East used to share a judge with other local clubs so no one group was stuck footing the entire bill for airfare and lodging, and that seems to be the most logical way to minimize costs...but if there's no other clubs that want the same judge, or are planning a trial in the same time frame, I can see where it might be necessary to charge that kind of entry fee, and even then the club still probably wouldn't break even.
I'm a bit puzzled by the scenario you described--if it was a seminar, what were people trying out for? If the event truly was a *seminar*, then the ladies in question should absolutely have been charged--just because one isn't wearing a sleeve and catching a dog doesn't mean one is not learning anything. If this was some sort of certification session or a try-out to work an event, OTOH, then I agree that charging these gals anything for being there was ridiculous.
And regardless of whether it was a seminar or a certification or try-out session, wearing high heels in any venue that would be suitable for any of these activities is also ridiculous (and this is being said by a female).
"Why charge spectators? Don't you want to promote the sport? "
On the one hand, there's the 'promote the sport' benefit of having spectators. On the other hand, there's the potential to have in attendance animal rights extremist spectator, the fanatical anti-bitework spectator, and the ego-challenged 'I want a bad-ass dog that will bite' spectator--and while charging a spectator fee won't necessarily discourage any of these, it surely isn't likely to draw them in as easily as having no fee might. Then there's the whole liability issue to consider as well, in these litigious days we live in.
"If you aren't participating in a helper seminar/certification, you really aren't getting a whole lot out of it."
Hmm. Can't say I agree with that. You're probably not going to get out of what you would as a participant, but an awful lot can be learned from observation. I can see the point of charging a nominal--like $10-15 a head--fee to observers at seminars, as long as the observers are going to be able to have a clear line of sight for the activity AND be able to hear what's being said by both the participants and the person(s) giving the seminar.
$100.00 is awfully high for an entry fee to a club-level trial, unless it includes meals or something, but as someone else already pointed out, there's a limit to the number of dogs that can be judged, so that limits the amount of money a club can take in to cover the expenses of putting on a trial. The club I belonged to back East used to share a judge with other local clubs so no one group was stuck footing the entire bill for airfare and lodging, and that seems to be the most logical way to minimize costs...but if there's no other clubs that want the same judge, or are planning a trial in the same time frame, I can see where it might be necessary to charge that kind of entry fee, and even then the club still probably wouldn't break even.
by zdog on 15 June 2010 - 01:06
Charging for spectating? a trial? No, I don't find that appropriate, i'll buy plenty of food and drink while i'm there and you can charge me 5 times what you pay for it. We never charge spectators at a trial.
for a handler seminar? Everyone pays, no questions. For a helper seminar? myself I wouldn't charge anything but for food and drink for helpers and people that bring their dogs. There just to watch? Pay the man his money.
to come to club training and watch? no charge. we charge 10 bucks to work your dog in protection, and you have access to the field for OB and tracking at certain times of the year.
I'd expect to pay anywhere from 30-60 bucks depending on what level I was going for from BH up to SchH III
for a handler seminar? Everyone pays, no questions. For a helper seminar? myself I wouldn't charge anything but for food and drink for helpers and people that bring their dogs. There just to watch? Pay the man his money.
to come to club training and watch? no charge. we charge 10 bucks to work your dog in protection, and you have access to the field for OB and tracking at certain times of the year.
I'd expect to pay anywhere from 30-60 bucks depending on what level I was going for from BH up to SchH III
by Bark and Hold on 15 June 2010 - 01:06
Typically Regional and National helper tryouts are coupled with general certifications and sometimes "seminars". Also, not all of the ladies present were in "high heels"... The point was that they weren't out on the field, they weren't dressed in dog working clothes, and they had no interest or desire in dog sport. They merely came to support their loved one or family member trying out for what is usually a thankless job. And those people aside, charging the handler of a dog that is there to enable a helper to tryout or raise his/her certification level is just ridiculous if not outrageous.
Also, I seriously doubt that a $25 spectator fee will keep out animal rights activists... It's kind of ridiculous to think that it would deter them, as they seem to be far more organized and united than people in "organized" dog sports. And as far as litigation goes, if you're going to host a club and club events, you're going to need insurance to begin with. If you want to cover that insurance cost by charging spectators then more power to you.
Look, this all started with the discussion of a club charging $100 per entry fee... And again, I say so what? If it hurts anyone, it will be them and their own entries. If you don't like paying $100 to show at a club event, then don't... That's practically a Regional event entry fee. But to charge spectators and handlers at helper certifications/tryouts is bullshit. The bottom line is that it is the principle vs. the money.
Also, I seriously doubt that a $25 spectator fee will keep out animal rights activists... It's kind of ridiculous to think that it would deter them, as they seem to be far more organized and united than people in "organized" dog sports. And as far as litigation goes, if you're going to host a club and club events, you're going to need insurance to begin with. If you want to cover that insurance cost by charging spectators then more power to you.
Look, this all started with the discussion of a club charging $100 per entry fee... And again, I say so what? If it hurts anyone, it will be them and their own entries. If you don't like paying $100 to show at a club event, then don't... That's practically a Regional event entry fee. But to charge spectators and handlers at helper certifications/tryouts is bullshit. The bottom line is that it is the principle vs. the money.
by Bark and Hold on 15 June 2010 - 01:06
And for the record Zdog, I agree with most everything you said (and have the same policies) in your last post regarding spectators at trials, spectators and participants at regular club training, and handler seminars. However, we have gotten to a point only have working slots for our handler/protection seminars. Not saying it's a better policy, just saying it's what we've come to find works best for us.
by gucci on 15 June 2010 - 01:06
Nia: got your pm, was really nasty, leave me alone. Lida
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