Ban of the e-collar - Page 3

" I do not exactly understand what you mean by:"Until I see someone whom will go from start to finish on one of the these dogs with a high degree of reliability and success I will continue to hold the opinion that they and there methodology is severely flawed."

Wasn't Yoshy referring to the "all positive", "never say no to your little doggy poo" trainers when he wrote the above?  We have a ton of those people around my area.  Hans, these people literally think it's wrong to say the word "no" to a dog when you are trying to train it, no matter what the situation.  Astounding.  Good thing they mostly own golden retrievers.

I have no doubt you are a fine trainer Hans.  And, I bet you have perfect timing when you correct a dog. 

Micky 

I'm not sure how it is other places but around here your average person has little control over their dog! That is in part why the collar is gaining popularity while there may be some people who can train and solve all these behavior problems with conventonal tools, not having a physical advantage over the dog can be a big problem for people , in a lot of those cases the dog has permanance of habit of the bad behavior and it takes tools for continued reinforecment and time to resolve the problem since the dog views the owner as a bumbling idiot .I personally do not see all these dogs with reliable off leash control the ones I see can;t even control them on the leash, every time I go running at the park every dog we see is dragging the owner toward my dog or they are desperatley trying to restrain the dog while it barks and lunges.and considering dog bites are at epidemic proportions in the country to the point the Surgeon Gerneral has to issue warnings, we must need help!  and not that money  is everything but most of the people that I know who are making serious money training dogs use the collar.  its a great way to level the playing field for handlers who are not highly skilled

Hans,

I know your stand point and its all good. We discussed it previously. It was not directed at those whom choose not to use them in favor of traditional training. I have a 6 month old boerboel in at the moment too. imported by two women whom dont know what they are getting into.

However when I made that statement I was referring to the Only Positive Reinforcement trainers in my area. I meant watching them take a dog with issues and correct it with no form of compulsion through out its entire program. I have yet to see this task completed by any of them. I have also witnessed them council euthanasia because the dog didnt fit there program. I feel its just another scam as I sure many of us end up with their program washouts.

Micky D hit the nail on the head of what I meant by that statement.


I am still a big fan of Colonel Konrad Most, Bill Koehler, and many other men through our past whom pioneered the way for modern training applications. The way they approached the learning bridge and successfully crossed it. In many facets of work. Not without disagreements in which we have learned since through the evolution of training but I think its wise to understand our past for a strong foundation to move forward.

I am fairly young in comparrison and when I was growing up if you were bitten by a dog the question asked was "what did you do to the dog" nowadays its you have a vicious dog that bit unprovoked(we know doesnt happen), it better be put down and or lawsuits etc...... I dont think many people take the time to learn the old ways in order to successfully apply the new methodolgies. Now many kids know more about a bengal tiger or great white shark that Mans Best Friend.

This single ban of a training device opens the "can" for so many other venues of discussion as it will roll down hill unless enough step in front of it.


Lee

PS
you know I have no doubt in your ability as a breeder and or a trainer.  I wouldnt discuss or debate training with you if i did. I damn sure would be trying to set myself up to procure a puppy from you either. You know I have a lot of respect for you and Jiri!

I do however beleive you can create or re-create a nice working partnership with a dog using an ecollar with an adequate use of reward. It does take the conflict(between handler and dog) out the scenario and the personal nature but it can still be done. You know very well if an prong is used incorrectly or mistimed you can destroy a relationship or if used correctly can build a relationship just as easy. I see it the same way with the use of eCollars.

MickyD so you believe that you do not need timing in training with e collar?

Leif.
Also you are mentioning people who are  making serious money by using e collars. To that I say that they  are not good trainers if that is the main training tool they are using. The results are not justified by the mens. The way to level a playing field is to acquire and pass down the knowledge of behavioral modification on the dog owners. Again I am not against  the e collars but the proper way is to  find the reasons for for such behavior and eliminate it through proper modification and hopefully before the problem occurs by proper upbringing of the pup. I am working with people on wheelchairs and 85 years old ladies with arthritis. Do not misunderstand me I am dead set against "positive only" training which I believe causes often aggression in dogs; like overly protective or overly aggressive behavior in dogs almost as much and sometimes more then no training at all. 
 Again I am not against e collars and their use. I do have one myself, but e collar should be used only in extreme situations and as a polishing tool to enhance proper none e collar training methods.
The main reasons for the training of the dog to me is to establish proper relationship with your dog. For that purpose the dog needs to know that the positive and negative is coming from the owner/handler.  I know that there are ways to communicate to the dog this even with the e collar, but that requires even higher skill, knowledge and timing that training without e collar. 
 Dog training compared to the restaurant is not or should not be McDonald's but it should be fain restaurant where it takes some time to prepare a meal. E collars are gaining popularity for the same reasons McDonald's are popular. Convenience and speed. Not for quality .
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com 

Timing is an absolute must with any tool. whether it is pressure, corrective, punitive, tug, food, etc........  

100% agree



edit-

I would also like to ask how are you collar conditioning a dog for your overlay?

Why would you use it only as an overlay or finishing tool?

You can successfully teach concepts, build relationships, behavior modification, overlay, etc.... with the collar. Where is your conflict with its use as a teaching tool?

I also put a post in while you were typing your last one Hans.

 "MickyD so you believe that you do not need timing in training with e collar?"

It's been my experience that timing of correction, and also of praise and/or of reward, is of paramount importance in teaching any skill you wish your dog to learn.  The manner in which that training is done is of minor importance.  As long as the dog stays upbeat and in drive, that is.  Too much correction especially in a pup or young dog spoils the learning experience.

Hans, you know dogs.  You know how they think and learn.

 Hans, I see what you are trying to say now.  You are absolutely correct when you say the dog must have a proper relationship with his trainer and must work out of the bond he and his owner share.  

I was walking by a Petsmart the other day and a young woman, probably in her early 20's, was being brought out the door (pulled out the door) by a nice looking grey sable GSD bitch on a harness.  I stopped and complimented her on her pretty bitch (who was quite social).  She told me she had not trained the 10 month old dog because she didn't have the time.  I did my best to encourage her to get into some sort of training and told her how much shepherds enjoy learning.  I suggested agility because people have fun doing it and we've got some good teachers around here.  

Seeing this woman neglect her relationship with her dog just really saddens me.  Our bond with our dogs blossoms when we learn to communicate.  I just pray that young dog doesn't end up in our local shelter at some point in the future.

Micky

To Yoshi.
My problem is that e collar is not building proper relationship if used in training and especially in initial learning faze. I believe that the dog must understand  in all training that he/she is working for you and not for a device on his or her neck. That is almost impossible to do as it is evidenced by 99% of dogs trained in high level competition (by experts trainers) which very quickly realize when the collar is not on and stop performing. That is because there is a break in proper relationship between the dog and the trainer. 
 It is always better to make the dog to perform for you for other proper reasons then e collar. 
If you use e collar you you may get top performance if you know what you are doing but if you use this training for every day life you may then be committed to use such collar all the time. Which is evidenced now by many police depts requirements and policies to use e collars  all the time on duty and during testing.
 Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

Micky
 Our bond with our dogs blossoms when we learn to communicate. I just pray that young dog doesn't end up in our local shelter at some point in the future.
This is the point!
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

Hi Hans!  I am stating the facts and your right guys like Mike Lardy are not good trainers they are great trainers.I'm not sure whom you have seen training with a collar or  what books you have read  but I think you misunderstand it.To say people who use collars are somehow less educated about dogs or do not understand behavioral science and are looking for a quick fix could not be more wrong  Many of them including my friend from Romania have degrees in behavioral science.and the people who developed Dogtra both have Masters in behavioral science    if anything it gives a better relationship with the dog or puppy,If I ever get back out to your house agian I'll bring my collars xxoo