German Shepherd colors - Page 3

darylehret- to be perfectly honest with you, I don't know the difference.I've just spent hours researching the differences in sables. I know alot now about what genes carry and produce what colors, but I've been unable to distinguish the difference of agouti, even though I know that "there is a difference".

I've been unclear on this point as well, but, isn't the wolf-agouti when the entire dog has agouti banding? For example, sable GSDs still have the tan pointing pattern, which is then usually overlaid with the black masking on the face. The tan on the legs is clear tan--not banded. Black and tan dogs are tan overlaid with a black saddle/blanket.

re: white sable
A white dog can be genetically b/t or sable or self (solid) patterned--the white genes just make all the hairs white, so you can't really see the pattern.

Christine

In a bitch stripe there are white or light hairs mixed among the black ones.  A sable has brownish or greyish hairs, each one tipped with black.

I know not the best pic,  but "what color would you say Sophie is?"

    And how about this dog                           

   Most sable pups are easily identified from birth. It is when you get into the patterned sables I believe that a little issue developes, that leaves you unclear,(myself anyway)as to what the dog will mature into.

I don't know that there is a considered difference, at least from a heredity standpoint.  "Agouti" as I understand it, refers to a locus on the chromosome that codes for any of the four acceptable gsd patterns: black, bicolor, black&tan, and sable (but not necessarily the controlling loci for other phenotypic variations).  There is a place for two separate "alleles" to be situated at the "agouti locus".  I was just asking for clarification of the perceived difference, as others might see it.  The meaning has changed over time, but agouti once refered to a south american rodent, then a broad spectrum of creatures with a particular coat pattern, then eventually a chromosome locus.  Even the meaning of "gene" has transformed over time, so use of the term can sometimes cause confusion.  Even an abacus was "digital" in its day.

A sable allele found in one domestic dog needn't be identical to a sable allele found on another dog or even a wolf, but they would be nearly identical.  For example, the sable allele could be of the variation that codes or doesn't code for a black belly stripe, a LOF (loss of function) segment within the sable allele.  You'll find variant strains of a type within specific bloodlines, more often than due to a spontaneous mutation.  In the case of a patterned sable, it could be suggestive of a recessive black & tan allele, but I can't claim that with certainty.

Ah! But are you right or wrong hawthorne in your assessment that an adult sable is easy to tell. My experience has been over the years sometimes easy; sometimes not. Now I am going to throw you another curve, what makes a bitch stripe a bitch stripe and not a patterned sable on a female? Just sit back, think about it and come to your conclusions.

With the extreme paling found in some showlines, it's getting harder and harder to tell from a picture, but in person, it's not as challenging.  Usually on a bitch with a strong bitch stripe, the color on the dog's sides, around the ribs, will still be solid black to the skin. A sable will have all the dark patches be sable hairs (except for masking on the muzzle, face and maybe the toemarks).

Kitkat, I'm not even going to try to guess a dog's color from those partial photographs--really need to see more than the dog's head and shoulders.

Daryl:
In the case of a patterned sable, it could be suggestive of a recessive black & tan allele, but I can't claim that with certainty.

I've found that dark sables with a strong saddle pattern often sables with the bicolor gene (or the bt+bicolor modifier). One famous example of this coloring would be Alk v. Osterburg Quell, who despite his dark pigment, didn't produce solid blacks. However, I agree, it's hard to say that it's anything more than "suggestive"--there's too much variation in shade and appearance, so there's got to be more factors in play.

Well, considering sable to be the original "wild type" allele found at the locus, it stands to reason that the allele types of black, bicolor, and black&tan are really each for the most part coding for "LOF" for various segments of the "original" sable allele.  Therefore, much of the black patterning takes place in various degrees in similar locations, just more extensively in it's recessive counterparts.  The "masking" is controlled from a different locus, though.

FWIW: Your  new screen name IS personally offensive, hardly a tribute and your initial post makes that clear.   I have no "friends" who behave in this manner. Great topic, despite the clear disrespect.

Please don't piss on my leg and try to tell me it's rain.

I think these are patterned Sables. They are definitely sable, but there are times they sure do look like black/tans.

Bonnie.