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by snajper69 on 17 December 2009 - 20:12
Adrenaline or no adrenaline when you get bit (a good bite, the one the dog intentions are tohurt) - you WILL feel it.
Sure but it hurts 100x more when the adrenaline effect slows down lol hahahaha ;) than it starts to hurt like a m/f
Sure but it hurts 100x more when the adrenaline effect slows down lol hahahaha ;) than it starts to hurt like a m/f
by Bob McKown on 17 December 2009 - 20:12
Snapi:
Why do you think they changed the courage test to what it is now, It used to start that the helper was running away from the handler and dog and at a certin point the dog was released and as the dog got close the helper would turn and attack the dog from the escape... there is a certin segment of dogs that were failing at a alarming rate and it was changed.
Any dog can be pressed to run from the attacker depending on the amount of pressure you allow the dog to be subjected to, and concidering the depth of it,s training.
Just my two cents.
Why do you think they changed the courage test to what it is now, It used to start that the helper was running away from the handler and dog and at a certin point the dog was released and as the dog got close the helper would turn and attack the dog from the escape... there is a certin segment of dogs that were failing at a alarming rate and it was changed.
Any dog can be pressed to run from the attacker depending on the amount of pressure you allow the dog to be subjected to, and concidering the depth of it,s training.
Just my two cents.
by snajper69 on 17 December 2009 - 20:12
Bob very good point, do you think that it was a mistake to change to the way it is today? At least I think so.
Another very good point that you made is it will depend on the amount and the type of training the dog gets, yes very true and right on.
Another very good point that you made is it will depend on the amount and the type of training the dog gets, yes very true and right on.
by snajper69 on 17 December 2009 - 20:12
Jim, I have one more question for you if you don't mind answering.
I know that your dog started in SCH and than was transfered over to police dog, after his first bite did you notice substantial change in your dog and how he perceive threats?
I know that your dog started in SCH and than was transfered over to police dog, after his first bite did you notice substantial change in your dog and how he perceive threats?
by ziegenfarm on 17 December 2009 - 20:12
i believe that many and maybe even most dogs can be "run off the field." i also believe there are some that cannot. the harder you push them, the more they fight back. ink zoterhund would be such a dog. (remember the link posted for the russian wusv dog!)
pjp
pjp
by Slamdunc on 17 December 2009 - 21:12
Snajper,
Jim Thanks for yoru respons very detailed and right on. You bring out another question that is on my mind, do your department, and you, work the dogs to exposed these weeknesses in order to improve on them? And finaly the helpers that you talk about that can put so much pressure on a dog, can they recreat the same with no protection gear on? Like I said I am not talking here about a situation where you going to put more pressure on a dog than you would do in actuall real situation, if so than this is kind of not fair to the dog. I am asking you because you one of the few people on this board that has actuall experience in a real situation not made up to be field situation.
Your welcome, thanks to you and the others for starting and supporting an interesting thread.
In regards to SchH or sport work, yes I believe there are helpers that can run strong dogs off the field. In the past I thought, "nah, that could never happen." Until, I saw some great helpers that could do it if they were so inclined. Maybe not every time, but under the right circumstances once, I think so. No dog is perfect, and I believe a dog can get stressed out from pressure in different areas of training. Pressure in tracking, obedience and bite work can take it's toll on even a great dog. Some of the seemingly toughest dogs may have an underlying insecurity causing them to go forward with aggression. This is not necessarily a bad thing, and the dog may have to work through this in a stressful fight. Those that do are awesome. But, the underlying insecurity is still there just like in humans. I am not embarrassed to admit I get scared at work sometimes. Tracking an armed subject through the woods at 2 am can feel uncomfortable. Telling a 6' 4" 300 lb highly agitated guy he's under arrest and he says @%$$% you, can be cause for concern. But you do what you have to do, just like you hope the dog will. I think I have a pretty tough dog. He has several real bites and has done some damage to some guys. But as I have said before on the forum, he's not there to fight my battles. He is a tool to assist me in my job, like a flashlight, OC spray, gun, baton, etc. Just like my other equipment he has limitations and I have to be smarter enough to know those limitations. Many people think their dog is invincible and will never back down. I don't think that, he's a dog. A very, very good dog, but still a dog. Can he be backed down, perhaps he can. Am I prepared for that, you betcha. I still have a job to do, cop first..... K9 handler second.
. We start out with green dogs and go through a 4 or 5 month school with them. We have a structured approach to the training and we expose the dogs to new environments and situations consistently. Each training day builds on the previous. We are constantly evaluating the dogs strengths and weaknesses. 2 or 3 dogs were washed out from the last school, nice dogs just didn't have what we wanted. We expect a lot from our patrol dogs and we will pressure them in training hopefully harder that what they will experience on the street. If we see or a problem we will immediately address it and work to resolve it. We have had dogs that have had some funny quirks. I have an issue with my dog now, he doesn't want to bark at people when on lead. He is a very confident dog, so he doesn't view people as a threat. This can cause people to misread him, because he's not a friendly dog. He will growl if you try to pet him or just bite you. The only warning is a low growl. He will stare people down a
Jim Thanks for yoru respons very detailed and right on. You bring out another question that is on my mind, do your department, and you, work the dogs to exposed these weeknesses in order to improve on them? And finaly the helpers that you talk about that can put so much pressure on a dog, can they recreat the same with no protection gear on? Like I said I am not talking here about a situation where you going to put more pressure on a dog than you would do in actuall real situation, if so than this is kind of not fair to the dog. I am asking you because you one of the few people on this board that has actuall experience in a real situation not made up to be field situation.
Your welcome, thanks to you and the others for starting and supporting an interesting thread.
In regards to SchH or sport work, yes I believe there are helpers that can run strong dogs off the field. In the past I thought, "nah, that could never happen." Until, I saw some great helpers that could do it if they were so inclined. Maybe not every time, but under the right circumstances once, I think so. No dog is perfect, and I believe a dog can get stressed out from pressure in different areas of training. Pressure in tracking, obedience and bite work can take it's toll on even a great dog. Some of the seemingly toughest dogs may have an underlying insecurity causing them to go forward with aggression. This is not necessarily a bad thing, and the dog may have to work through this in a stressful fight. Those that do are awesome. But, the underlying insecurity is still there just like in humans. I am not embarrassed to admit I get scared at work sometimes. Tracking an armed subject through the woods at 2 am can feel uncomfortable. Telling a 6' 4" 300 lb highly agitated guy he's under arrest and he says @%$$% you, can be cause for concern. But you do what you have to do, just like you hope the dog will. I think I have a pretty tough dog. He has several real bites and has done some damage to some guys. But as I have said before on the forum, he's not there to fight my battles. He is a tool to assist me in my job, like a flashlight, OC spray, gun, baton, etc. Just like my other equipment he has limitations and I have to be smarter enough to know those limitations. Many people think their dog is invincible and will never back down. I don't think that, he's a dog. A very, very good dog, but still a dog. Can he be backed down, perhaps he can. Am I prepared for that, you betcha. I still have a job to do, cop first..... K9 handler second.
. We start out with green dogs and go through a 4 or 5 month school with them. We have a structured approach to the training and we expose the dogs to new environments and situations consistently. Each training day builds on the previous. We are constantly evaluating the dogs strengths and weaknesses. 2 or 3 dogs were washed out from the last school, nice dogs just didn't have what we wanted. We expect a lot from our patrol dogs and we will pressure them in training hopefully harder that what they will experience on the street. If we see or a problem we will immediately address it and work to resolve it. We have had dogs that have had some funny quirks. I have an issue with my dog now, he doesn't want to bark at people when on lead. He is a very confident dog, so he doesn't view people as a threat. This can cause people to misread him, because he's not a friendly dog. He will growl if you try to pet him or just bite you. The only warning is a low growl. He will stare people down a
by Slamdunc on 17 December 2009 - 21:12
continued, cut off again......
The only warning is a low growl. He will stare people down and bite given the opportunity. He is intense, but I am working on him barking more readily on command. I think that would be safer for the public that thinks they can just walk up to him, especially in a hostile crowd situation. Some people think they can yell and scream at you because your dog isn't barking. It's frustrating because I can't go hands on to arrest them
As I said earlier, we like to do some real scenario based training and then you can see the problems. Sometimes, you need to exploit a weakness to correct it. The dog is put in a situation we know will stress it. This is a controlled scenario ad the trainer, handler and decoy have a plan to work the dog. This plan will encompass what we think thew dog will do and how the decoy should react to the dog. The plan also covers what the decoy and handler will do if the dog performs well or shows a problem. If you are ready for the problem in training you can quickly switch to a way to correct it.
I recently decoyed for our K9 guys and put a lot of pressure on the dogs. One dog especially. I put considerably more pressure on that dog than the other dogs I worked that night. That handler commented "boy, you worked my dog really hard, harder than the others." I actually worked all of the dogs really hard and warned the handlers ahead of time that this would be stressful for the dogs. My response to the first handler was "Your dog handled it better than the other dogs, and could take more." I'm sure each of the dogs believed they were all worked to the same level in their own minds. But each dog was pushed as hard as I felt I could push them and they could win. But they were all different in how much they could handle. The first was an experienced street dog with several real bites and dozens of apprehensions. The other two were relatively young and have not had any street bites being newer dogs. The difference in intensity was evident, and I expected more from the experienced dog.
I worked those dogs with no equipment and eventually they got a bite on a sleeve, only after they proved they wanted to bite me and not the equipment. They had to make me believe they wanted me and not the sleeve or anything else. The sleeve was just a stress relief for the dog. I can honestly say given the choice of biting the sleeve or biting me they all would have bit me and badly. I know, because I gave them the choice.
The only warning is a low growl. He will stare people down and bite given the opportunity. He is intense, but I am working on him barking more readily on command. I think that would be safer for the public that thinks they can just walk up to him, especially in a hostile crowd situation. Some people think they can yell and scream at you because your dog isn't barking. It's frustrating because I can't go hands on to arrest them
As I said earlier, we like to do some real scenario based training and then you can see the problems. Sometimes, you need to exploit a weakness to correct it. The dog is put in a situation we know will stress it. This is a controlled scenario ad the trainer, handler and decoy have a plan to work the dog. This plan will encompass what we think thew dog will do and how the decoy should react to the dog. The plan also covers what the decoy and handler will do if the dog performs well or shows a problem. If you are ready for the problem in training you can quickly switch to a way to correct it.
I recently decoyed for our K9 guys and put a lot of pressure on the dogs. One dog especially. I put considerably more pressure on that dog than the other dogs I worked that night. That handler commented "boy, you worked my dog really hard, harder than the others." I actually worked all of the dogs really hard and warned the handlers ahead of time that this would be stressful for the dogs. My response to the first handler was "Your dog handled it better than the other dogs, and could take more." I'm sure each of the dogs believed they were all worked to the same level in their own minds. But each dog was pushed as hard as I felt I could push them and they could win. But they were all different in how much they could handle. The first was an experienced street dog with several real bites and dozens of apprehensions. The other two were relatively young and have not had any street bites being newer dogs. The difference in intensity was evident, and I expected more from the experienced dog.
I worked those dogs with no equipment and eventually they got a bite on a sleeve, only after they proved they wanted to bite me and not the equipment. They had to make me believe they wanted me and not the sleeve or anything else. The sleeve was just a stress relief for the dog. I can honestly say given the choice of biting the sleeve or biting me they all would have bit me and badly. I know, because I gave them the choice.
by Slamdunc on 17 December 2009 - 21:12
Snajper,
I know that your dog started in SCH and than was transfered over to police dog, after his first bite did you notice substantial change in your dog and how he perceive threats?
Most definitely! He now knows it is ok to bite people and he has become a bit of an ass. His last two bites were serious and both guys screamed in pain. I would equate it to almost being tased. I base this on being tased and the amount of pain I was in and the amount of pain and screaming these guys did. I unfortunately could not scream when I was tased, but I wanted too. I have to be on my toes at all times with this dog, because I know he will bite. I have seen his demeanor change and can tell when he wants to bite someone, it is just the look in his eye. I think he turned part mali. He used to be good going into buildings with other cops and searching. The other night we searched a large high school, it took like an hour to clear it. I could see he was getting frustrated and wanted to bite someone. So, I told the other two cops to stay close to me and watch the dog. There are many times in a building that the dog can go in one door and come out behind you in a different hallway and he is supposed to bite whomever he finds. Well, my knucklehead went about 50 yards down a hall way, (school halls can be over a 100 yards long or longer) turned, looked and came back to me. Only on the way back he was picking up speed. I thought "oh shucks." (not exactly) and watched my dog target the cop 15 yards behind me. I was able to give a "No, Here" command an he stopped and turned after skidding for 5 yds just in front of the cop and recalled. The cop was standing very still, hands in front of his groin like a statue. Yes, he was going to bite the cop for sure.
So the hold and bark is out the window, which is good. Equipment is also out the window, which is good too. We were on a search warrant last night and one of the swat guys likes to mess with the dogs. I warned him that he shouldn't f#%& with my dog. I brought my dog in the house to do a narcotics search and saw the dog bare all of his teeth as we walked out of a room. I looked and saw the swat guy staring at my dog and my dog was all teeth. He must have done something when my back was turned coming out of the room and the dog was going to bite him. I would have laughed, because it wouldn't have hurt me a bit. The guy was warned. I think he was expecting the dog to bark and maybe lunge at him, that wasn't what was going to happen.
So, yes he's changed. He's more serious and doesn't need much provocation to bite.
Jim
I know that your dog started in SCH and than was transfered over to police dog, after his first bite did you notice substantial change in your dog and how he perceive threats?
Most definitely! He now knows it is ok to bite people and he has become a bit of an ass. His last two bites were serious and both guys screamed in pain. I would equate it to almost being tased. I base this on being tased and the amount of pain I was in and the amount of pain and screaming these guys did. I unfortunately could not scream when I was tased, but I wanted too. I have to be on my toes at all times with this dog, because I know he will bite. I have seen his demeanor change and can tell when he wants to bite someone, it is just the look in his eye. I think he turned part mali. He used to be good going into buildings with other cops and searching. The other night we searched a large high school, it took like an hour to clear it. I could see he was getting frustrated and wanted to bite someone. So, I told the other two cops to stay close to me and watch the dog. There are many times in a building that the dog can go in one door and come out behind you in a different hallway and he is supposed to bite whomever he finds. Well, my knucklehead went about 50 yards down a hall way, (school halls can be over a 100 yards long or longer) turned, looked and came back to me. Only on the way back he was picking up speed. I thought "oh shucks." (not exactly) and watched my dog target the cop 15 yards behind me. I was able to give a "No, Here" command an he stopped and turned after skidding for 5 yds just in front of the cop and recalled. The cop was standing very still, hands in front of his groin like a statue. Yes, he was going to bite the cop for sure.
So the hold and bark is out the window, which is good. Equipment is also out the window, which is good too. We were on a search warrant last night and one of the swat guys likes to mess with the dogs. I warned him that he shouldn't f#%& with my dog. I brought my dog in the house to do a narcotics search and saw the dog bare all of his teeth as we walked out of a room. I looked and saw the swat guy staring at my dog and my dog was all teeth. He must have done something when my back was turned coming out of the room and the dog was going to bite him. I would have laughed, because it wouldn't have hurt me a bit. The guy was warned. I think he was expecting the dog to bark and maybe lunge at him, that wasn't what was going to happen.
So, yes he's changed. He's more serious and doesn't need much provocation to bite.
Jim
by vom ost see on 17 December 2009 - 22:12
the original post by"s69"..."chased off the field",we'll assume some sort of training scenerio....this has sparked some very good posts by the more informed board members(slamdunc and others).my involvment in dogs is sport only...so i can't comment on strengths/weaknesses in real life situations,i can also agree that an experienced "trial helper" in full protective gear(scratch suit-sleeve/bite suit,ect) enters the fray with an unfair advantage....equipted with this much armour,logical thinking and opposable thumbs....not a fair fight(for a sport dog)....yet consider the real-life(or as near as possible) encounters in training a patrol dog...yes the dogs should be pressured more...much more!how does that training tranlate to the street?? most if not all criminals aren't dog trainers/handlers...getting caught is not their idea of a successful outing...that person slinks about in the shadows,hides himself when the opportunity presents itself,effectively turning himself into prey....a dog like"slamdunc" mentioned would tear this guy to peices...possibly even a "lesser" dog would/could do an acceptable apprehension....the "average"criminal (as far as i've seen) has a healthy fear of being caught.....this skuzball couldn't run even a marginal street dog...but again,my thing is sport.
by hodie on 17 December 2009 - 22:12
Great post Slamdunc. I remember having a long conversation one night with Bernhard Flinks about this same subject. He had a lot of the same beliefs and experiences as do you. And at that time, had one S&##%^$^&%^& of a dog, who would even bite him if he was not careful. The bad guys on Bernhards beat have not fared well with this dog because he was going to get them, one way or the other. He also had other officers who liked to taunt the dog, and several of them paid for their stupidity. LOL.
Stay safe out there, and be careful. As always, thank you for your service to the citizens of your area.
Stay safe out there, and be careful. As always, thank you for your service to the citizens of your area.
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