Is this a reasonable price for this bitch? - Page 3

In a word, "No'

Danbee,
can you tell me where I can buy a 3 year old KKL1 V-rated bitch for 4K? That is interesting, because with the exchange rate in place you pay more than 4K to get a SchH1 and a breed survey done in Germany plus shipping. I know what I am talking about because I have had several dogs titled in the past  year alone: 3 of them to SchH3 KKL1, one to SchH1 KKL1 and two are still over there for titling. So, I believe that I have a fairly good idea what it costs. As a matter of fact, just sitting down and calculate what we have spent on all that is not something we like to do because it makes us dizzy.
In Germany, an average reasonable price to get your dog titled is 2500 Euros for a Schh1 and breed survey (which of course includes a BH and an AD), a SchH2 and a SchH3 (provided it is with the same trainer) is another 500 to 700 Euros each. Now, the exchange rate is about 1 to 1.5. That means that 2500 Euros equals 3,750 US-$, 500 to 700 Euros equals 750 to 1,050 US-$. I have found that there are some varieties in prices, like some charge "only" 2000 Euros for the initial title with breed survey, but will add a monthly food and board bill of 100 to 150 Euros. At the end, it usually all comes down to the same price.  So, a SchH1 title will cost $ 3,750 plus and a SchH3 at least $ 5,250 plus (the plus usually entails cost you have to pay extra in gas money, vet costs and handler fees for shows). Now, these trainers usually are in demand (the ones which are not I would stay away from anyway) and will only accept dogs on certain conditions, like the dog must bite a young dog sleeve already or that they will not accept a dog under 16 months or if the dog does not turn 2 at that year (otherwise, they would have to board the dog through the winter time). Not included in these prices are the shipping costs which are very high now as well. I don't know what shipping from the U.S. is now since we always fly our dogs to Germany as well, but taking them with us one way is $ 400. If I need to ship them back from Germany through PetAir or Gradlyn it is now about a 1,000 Euros ($ 1,500). And if you get lucky and you find a person who is willing to either raise a dog for you or will keep your female to the next heat cycle to be bred, you can add about 150 to 200 Euros as a monthly board and food expense ($ 225 to $ 300). It is hard to find somebody in Germany willing to do it because it is hard work for them.
Are you dizzy yet? That all is the reason I get angry when people try to justify why their litters of untitiled parents should be worth the same as our carefully and painfully paid for litters (mine and a handful of other breeders who are willing to do the same).
Comparible young dogs for sale in Germany (to the aforementioned female) usually sell for 1500 Euros upwards, depending on the quality (no titles of course, but the parents are always titled and breed surveyed), but you will have to add shipping and other costs (vet expense etc.).

"There is a lot more to learn before buying dogs simply to breed. But alas, too many come here seeking absolution about what they already have decided to do..."

Truer words may never have been posted on this board.

My point on pigment vs workability is he buyer has  his/her priorities way out of order if they want to breed good quality german shepherd dogs! I have never seen a dog with terrible pigment also have great structure and temperment, so you are correct to an extent, but there are plenty of black/tans (not red) with maybe a bit less mask/smaller saddle who are still phenomenal. I see plenty of beautifully pigmented dogs at our Sieger shows who I wouldn't take home if someone paid me to!

And as far as "whats fair is what people are willing to pay"...I disagree COMPLETELY. Grossly inflated prices impact the whole market for that breed and therefore impact every dog buyer and seller!

Silbersee - There's one in Canada posted on this board right now for that price.  I didn't say they were frequently available, just that they are.  I also have paid 4x that much for a good female, just depends on the dog and the level of quality that you want.  I do know how much it costs to title in Germany but if you're patient and keep your eyes open you can often find a breeder who's downsizing, someone who had one litter from the female, kept a pup back and now needs to sell the female due to kennel space, a divorce situation or multiple other reasons that people sell dogs for less than what they would typically go for.  You do have to be patient but they're out there. 

KCzaja
I did not say : "whats fair is what people are willing to pay."  I have said that: ' the dog is worth what anybody is willing to pay for it." Go and reread danbee post about real estate about 8 posts above this one. I fully agree with that one. I would also ad that this is the truth going below the replacement value of the real estate (or dog) and also it is the truth about going above replacement value of a real estate or the dog and so on.  Fairness is a moral and ethical issue. Worth is a market pressure issue which has nothing to do with morals or ethics. Think again about what danbee said about buying the dog below actual value from someone under stress just above this post. Is that fair? No it is not  fair, but it is a value of that dog in that particular socio economical environment of the seller.  Which is my point. Replacement value has usually nothing to do with a price of anything. The problem of selling and buying is not unfortunately that simple.
Prager Hans

Yes, Danbee that is correct!
A KKL1 bitch is not the same as a KKL1 bitch. And it is also true that a dog's value is whatever the market will bear (same thing goes for puppies), but the problem is (in the U.S. at least) the declining value of the dollar and that the prices in Europe pretty much stay the same. Europeans cater to more clients than just the American ones.
It also depends on what the priorities are. If someone wants to be on the podium of trials, or in the first ring of the German Sieger Show or get a nice foundation for a breeding program (a good producing female is worth her weight in gold, so to speak).
Since I am from Germany and I have been doing this for more years than I care to remember, I can tell you that times have changed for Americans ever since the German Mark was replaced with the Euro and the decline of the economy.

The economy is declining on both side of the ocean. As a matter of fact I am getting dogs from Europe to USA now cheaper then 2 years ago.
Off course I am afraid that Obama is going to fix that.
Prager Hans