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by Two Moons on 11 October 2009 - 17:10
There is no standard tests for the perfect GSD in place anywhere that I know of.
Only for specific qualities and those are very specific in deed.
The breed should not be limited to this narrow minded idea of a dogs worth.
There are great dogs out there, maybe you'd like one for yourself.
You must first know where to look, and learn what it is your looking for.
Then you must open your eyes and your mind to see...........
For now I think your looking in all the wrong places.
Only for specific qualities and those are very specific in deed.
The breed should not be limited to this narrow minded idea of a dogs worth.
There are great dogs out there, maybe you'd like one for yourself.
You must first know where to look, and learn what it is your looking for.
Then you must open your eyes and your mind to see...........
For now I think your looking in all the wrong places.
by Sunsilver on 11 October 2009 - 17:10
Prager, I'm sure there are large kennels out there that are doing it right. However GARD's original post said: "the sch champ gets a million breedings even if he is no good."
'Nuff said!
'Nuff said!
by Two Moons on 11 October 2009 - 18:10
Agreed.
by Bob McKown on 11 October 2009 - 19:10
This is nothing more then a whinney attempt at a shot at Schutzhund. WOW you spent 7 days in Europe and low and behold you know and understabd the mind set of the European dogtra...
Sorry GARD, My dogs are not rakes,shovels,brooms,axes,there not ropes,chains, or cables they are living breathing mammels of the pack who need pack interaction emoitional interaction and rules to live by Ring,KNPV, what have you does not have the market cornered on good dogs. This was no more then an attempt to get a my venue is tougher then yours going. Eveyone should pick there intrest and capitolize on it the best they can and enjoy it. Any off handed attempts at a slap at another venue is nothing more then envoy gone ary.
Sorry GARD, My dogs are not rakes,shovels,brooms,axes,there not ropes,chains, or cables they are living breathing mammels of the pack who need pack interaction emoitional interaction and rules to live by Ring,KNPV, what have you does not have the market cornered on good dogs. This was no more then an attempt to get a my venue is tougher then yours going. Eveyone should pick there intrest and capitolize on it the best they can and enjoy it. Any off handed attempts at a slap at another venue is nothing more then envoy gone ary.
by Get A Real Dog on 12 October 2009 - 08:10
I posted this because this man's observations, reminded me of a book I read by the author John Katz.
The title of the book is "The New Work of Dogs." In this book he explores the emotional connections humans have with their dogs. In short, his observations and opinions are that dogs are relied upon far to much for the emoitional needs of their owners. I agree.
In his book, he admires the ability dogs have to help humans in times of need. He explores how the dynamic of the dog/human relationship have changed from the times dogs were used primarily for actual work and helping the human survive or to make a living. He admires the dogs and how they are able to adapt to their new "work", however he strongly questions how healthy these relationships are and indicates his belief that these types of relationships, more often than not, are to the detriment of the dog.
I share this belief. There was a time in my life, when I depended on my dogs way to much for emotional support. I never did anything terrible to my dogs, and do not believe they ever suffered severly during this time, but it was definatley unhealthy for me. Even as a kid, I always marveled at watching a dog do what they were bred to do. Hunting dogs, ranch dogs, police dogs,etc. I always appreciated that. Getting into working dogs was helpful for me in that I came to realize what the true relationship between a man and his dog should be.
This had nothing to do with a particular sport venue, sure wasn't about bashing a sport. But since Bob now has some issue with me and wants to argue, I will start another post where he can wack away if he chooses. (See "what I love and hate about Sch")
This post was to hopefully try and get people to think and engage in thought provoking discussion. I forgot that type of discussion left this board a long time ago.
The title of the book is "The New Work of Dogs." In this book he explores the emotional connections humans have with their dogs. In short, his observations and opinions are that dogs are relied upon far to much for the emoitional needs of their owners. I agree.
In his book, he admires the ability dogs have to help humans in times of need. He explores how the dynamic of the dog/human relationship have changed from the times dogs were used primarily for actual work and helping the human survive or to make a living. He admires the dogs and how they are able to adapt to their new "work", however he strongly questions how healthy these relationships are and indicates his belief that these types of relationships, more often than not, are to the detriment of the dog.
I share this belief. There was a time in my life, when I depended on my dogs way to much for emotional support. I never did anything terrible to my dogs, and do not believe they ever suffered severly during this time, but it was definatley unhealthy for me. Even as a kid, I always marveled at watching a dog do what they were bred to do. Hunting dogs, ranch dogs, police dogs,etc. I always appreciated that. Getting into working dogs was helpful for me in that I came to realize what the true relationship between a man and his dog should be.
This had nothing to do with a particular sport venue, sure wasn't about bashing a sport. But since Bob now has some issue with me and wants to argue, I will start another post where he can wack away if he chooses. (See "what I love and hate about Sch")
This post was to hopefully try and get people to think and engage in thought provoking discussion. I forgot that type of discussion left this board a long time ago.
by sueincc on 12 October 2009 - 11:10
GARD Can you elaborate on the negative effects of a handler who loves the dog he/she competes with? If you could provide some example of something that would illustrate your thesis it might be helpful.
Are you talking about sentimentality? Because I too have been to Europe and know many Europeans. One of the critisizms I have heard from them is too many Americans sometimes forget about the dog in chasing sport trophies. The Europeans I know are more inclined to train the dog they have rather then forever buying and selling dogs in search of that elusive "perfect dog". Makes them better dog trainers too.
As far as selling dogs, your friend might want to look again. For many years in the not too distant past, Americans went to Germany thinking if they threw enough money at them, the Germans would be obliged to sell them their best dogs. Turns out the joke was on the Americans.
Are you talking about sentimentality? Because I too have been to Europe and know many Europeans. One of the critisizms I have heard from them is too many Americans sometimes forget about the dog in chasing sport trophies. The Europeans I know are more inclined to train the dog they have rather then forever buying and selling dogs in search of that elusive "perfect dog". Makes them better dog trainers too.
As far as selling dogs, your friend might want to look again. For many years in the not too distant past, Americans went to Germany thinking if they threw enough money at them, the Germans would be obliged to sell them their best dogs. Turns out the joke was on the Americans.
by Bob McKown on 12 October 2009 - 11:10
GARD:
Your original post takes a shot at Schutzhund? So you whine when it,s given back? I,ve heard every thing from Schutzhund gets all the good helpers. Another whine from a post on here spouting a real dog forum to Schutzhund dogs can,t bite... come on all ready now we love our dogs too much... The "problem" is too many people look only to the "sport" aspect of the dog that is the problem in a nut shell.
Your original post takes a shot at Schutzhund? So you whine when it,s given back? I,ve heard every thing from Schutzhund gets all the good helpers. Another whine from a post on here spouting a real dog forum to Schutzhund dogs can,t bite... come on all ready now we love our dogs too much... The "problem" is too many people look only to the "sport" aspect of the dog that is the problem in a nut shell.
by 4pack on 12 October 2009 - 12:10
I think GARD's point is too many only see Fifi is my baby, I love her and I want puppies from her. Sure there are those who want robots or a dog for only work and not companionship. Bob your barking up the wrong tree here. Anyway, time for work so I can feed my dogs.
by sueincc on 12 October 2009 - 12:10
Except the confusion for me is the quote GARD provided. My experience has been the opposite, Eurpoeans are far less worried about trophies and sports than their American counterparts. Of course, I can only speak to the sport of schutzhund, I don't speak about other sports because they are not my venue. The Europeans may be more reserved, but the ones I know are no less sentimental about their dogs. Their dogs are not a means to an end.
I think I understand what the person who made the original quote was talking about, but to assume the difference is because Europeans love the sport not the dogs is in my opinion, incorrect. Too many times Americans look for easy answers to difficult questions. You can't tie up the difference with one sentence and a pretty little bow. To start with, perhaps his new European friends are maybe a litlle less kennel blind and more experienced in breeding than his American friends? Things are changing in America, people have figured out that rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, study those who have been doing this successfully for many, many years in Europe. For the best breeders and trainers in the USA, this is nothing new, this is how they learned.
I think I understand what the person who made the original quote was talking about, but to assume the difference is because Europeans love the sport not the dogs is in my opinion, incorrect. Too many times Americans look for easy answers to difficult questions. You can't tie up the difference with one sentence and a pretty little bow. To start with, perhaps his new European friends are maybe a litlle less kennel blind and more experienced in breeding than his American friends? Things are changing in America, people have figured out that rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, study those who have been doing this successfully for many, many years in Europe. For the best breeders and trainers in the USA, this is nothing new, this is how they learned.
by Two Moons on 12 October 2009 - 12:10
Gard,
You sure take the long path home.
I didn't read that particular book, and I'm not real sure I have any clue as to what your point is.
What type of discussion left this board a long time ago?
What should the true relationship between man and dog be?
This has the makings of a whole new thread in my opinion.
I would love a great topic and a good discussion.
I see the board was cleansed overnight of some of the lesser threads.....LOL
I don't know if thats good or bad just yet, I did however not sleep well after seeing Ronnie's fur bearer on the bed.
My pup is almost ready to start work on a long line, this is one of my methods I use.
Does anyone else ?
Ahh,
Another new thread I think, its not Schutzhund.
Good morning everyone.
Moons.
You sure take the long path home.
I didn't read that particular book, and I'm not real sure I have any clue as to what your point is.
What type of discussion left this board a long time ago?
What should the true relationship between man and dog be?
This has the makings of a whole new thread in my opinion.
I would love a great topic and a good discussion.
I see the board was cleansed overnight of some of the lesser threads.....LOL
I don't know if thats good or bad just yet, I did however not sleep well after seeing Ronnie's fur bearer on the bed.
My pup is almost ready to start work on a long line, this is one of my methods I use.
Does anyone else ?
Ahh,
Another new thread I think, its not Schutzhund.
Good morning everyone.
Moons.
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