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by wdog86 on 28 June 2009 - 07:06
>Read some of the threads on this board, if you don't know what I'm
>talking about. Anytime you ask questions like the ones asked above
>in your original post, it stirs up a hornet's nest. There are a lot of pet
>breeders who post here and vehemently defend their right to breed
>untitled and non OFA dogs, and then there are an equal amount of
>breeders that work their dogs and like to see their dogs worked.
I am interested in specific information and don't want to read several threads worth of info just to find out why people on this forum fight with each other. If you say that some people here have some odd mental problems, I will take your word for it.
>The extreme roach that's seen in the show world is not what I prefer,
>either. Just the same, there are those who defend it, aggressively.
To each his own. It isn't my taste, but if someone wants to get into a fight over it, then they should get a real life.
>The reason I said what I said is because of the way you worded your post...
>Too many times here, someone has come on, trying to stir trouble, and then
>come back later, under another username, stirring more trouble with similarly
>worded posts. I just wondered if you might be one of these, especially when
>you mentioned 120 pounds and 29 inches plus at the shoulders...
It isn't me, so anyone with such an emotional problem should just get over it. I mentioned that because I have seen dogs like that, and they seemed like perfectly fine dogs to me. Whether they fit someone else's arbitrarily defined standard doesn't really matter to me. I have my own standards I am looking for.
>The standard calls for much smaller, and a GSD that is that big, while
>getting to be more common, is way beyond the standard and should not be
>bred for. That size is for Malamutes and other giant breeds, of which the
>Shepherd is not one.
>Just my opinion, and I'm certainly not condemning you in any way.
Yes, just your opinion and you are certainly welcome to it. Likewise, it is mine that there is nothing wrong with very large GSDs, and I don't think that it is a necesssary conclusion that anyone who wants such a dog, or breeds for them, is an unethical heretic, as some seem to think. Frankly, "big GSD" seems like a good thing to me. I really can't see what is so wrong with that idea.
>It's just that I've seen too many similar posts start a heated,
>sometimes vicious flame-fest.
Then I would suggest that anyone who engaged in such a thing over what I said should spend less money on dogs and more money on psychiatrists. Obviously, there is a sizeable demand for such a dog. Therefore, it seems like a perfectly good question to me.
>talking about. Anytime you ask questions like the ones asked above
>in your original post, it stirs up a hornet's nest. There are a lot of pet
>breeders who post here and vehemently defend their right to breed
>untitled and non OFA dogs, and then there are an equal amount of
>breeders that work their dogs and like to see their dogs worked.
I am interested in specific information and don't want to read several threads worth of info just to find out why people on this forum fight with each other. If you say that some people here have some odd mental problems, I will take your word for it.
>The extreme roach that's seen in the show world is not what I prefer,
>either. Just the same, there are those who defend it, aggressively.
To each his own. It isn't my taste, but if someone wants to get into a fight over it, then they should get a real life.
>The reason I said what I said is because of the way you worded your post...
>Too many times here, someone has come on, trying to stir trouble, and then
>come back later, under another username, stirring more trouble with similarly
>worded posts. I just wondered if you might be one of these, especially when
>you mentioned 120 pounds and 29 inches plus at the shoulders...
It isn't me, so anyone with such an emotional problem should just get over it. I mentioned that because I have seen dogs like that, and they seemed like perfectly fine dogs to me. Whether they fit someone else's arbitrarily defined standard doesn't really matter to me. I have my own standards I am looking for.
>The standard calls for much smaller, and a GSD that is that big, while
>getting to be more common, is way beyond the standard and should not be
>bred for. That size is for Malamutes and other giant breeds, of which the
>Shepherd is not one.
>Just my opinion, and I'm certainly not condemning you in any way.
Yes, just your opinion and you are certainly welcome to it. Likewise, it is mine that there is nothing wrong with very large GSDs, and I don't think that it is a necesssary conclusion that anyone who wants such a dog, or breeds for them, is an unethical heretic, as some seem to think. Frankly, "big GSD" seems like a good thing to me. I really can't see what is so wrong with that idea.
>It's just that I've seen too many similar posts start a heated,
>sometimes vicious flame-fest.
Then I would suggest that anyone who engaged in such a thing over what I said should spend less money on dogs and more money on psychiatrists. Obviously, there is a sizeable demand for such a dog. Therefore, it seems like a perfectly good question to me.
by Two Moons on 28 June 2009 - 07:06
w dog,
I too have seen dogs as you describe.
I don't know why you asked here tho.
I'm sure if you search you will have no problem finding what you want.
Just be careful of what you wish for.
People who breed for a specific trait ignore other very important factors.
You must know what your getting or risk a loss.
Happy hunting.
Moons.
I too have seen dogs as you describe.
I don't know why you asked here tho.
I'm sure if you search you will have no problem finding what you want.
Just be careful of what you wish for.
People who breed for a specific trait ignore other very important factors.
You must know what your getting or risk a loss.
Happy hunting.
Moons.
by wdog86 on 28 June 2009 - 07:06
>A lot of board members here work their dogs, in Schutzhund
>(I know, not one of your requirements), herding, tracking, PPD
>(personal protection), police work, therapy, and lots of other things.
>The reason they all have GSDs is because of the dogs' medium/large
>size, intelligence, working ability, and looks.
If I had to guess, I would say that something like 99+ percent of all GSDs are ordinary family dogs that don't do much of any of those things. The reason they are ordinary family dogs is because they make great family dogs and most people just don't have much use for a Schutzhund dog. If people here don't know enough about GSDs to recognize that, then they have a problem.
>A 120 pound GSD, while capable in theory of doing all of this, is
>nonetheless disadvantaged by his size, and is more likely to have
>structural problems. Most working dogs, except for draft, livestock
>guardian, and mastiff type breeds (Great Pyrenees, Bernese
>mountain dogs, Caucasian Ovcharka (sp), Bull Mastiffs, etc) are
>medium to medium-large size (GSD, Malinois, Dutch Shepherds,
>Australian Shepherd, on and on, including the sporting breeds, setters,
>pointers, etc) There is a reason these dogs are sized as they are.
Yeah, I recognize the reasons why working dogs should be certain sizes. I would hope that others could recognize that the vast majority of people have no such requirements in a dog. The vast majority of GSDs never really "work". Therefore, large size is not a handicap for a dog that is not going to be jumping over barriers.
>You are right about people having GSD that weigh over 100 pounds.
>I have seen them. My own first GSD was a large male, at about 90
>pounds and he was pretty good sized, but I'd guess not over 26" at
>the shoulder. The fact remains that breeders who intentionally breed for
>oversize GSDs are doing so because they are breeding dogs for the
>money and have no concern for the breed they are adding to.
Pardon me for saying so, but that sounds like a hasty generalization. I see no particular reason why someone could not be devoted to breeding very large, healthy, and otherwise sound GSDs, and doing so honestly. In fact, I have run into a couple of them myself.
>I say adding, because it's not a contribution to bring in oversize dogs,
>any more than it would be to breed for mini GSDs.
That rather depends on what you want the dog to do, doesn't it? Like any other engineering problem. It's not like every GSD is going to be required to jump ten-foot barriers as a part of their standard day. The vast majority of them are going to spend most of their days getting their ears pulled on by kids, etc.
>I agree with the above post that Shilohs seem to be more what you're
>looking for.
I was wondering if there were other options. Like I said, I don't see "big GSD" and "good ethics" as being mutually exclusive.
>I know you said pure GSD, but simply put, I wouldn't trust a dog from
>any breeder deliberately breeding for such a huge size, since there are
>a limited number of such large dogs, and therefore a very limited gene
>pool...It's enough of a crapshoot with the gene pool we already have
>in the normal sized dogs.
It seems that you can't ask any question about a GSD without someone telling you that it is a crap shoot for one reason or another. It seems that american bred GSDs have some serious problems with reputation, whether it is true or not. But, obviously, very good very large dogs of the GSD line do exist, b
>(I know, not one of your requirements), herding, tracking, PPD
>(personal protection), police work, therapy, and lots of other things.
>The reason they all have GSDs is because of the dogs' medium/large
>size, intelligence, working ability, and looks.
If I had to guess, I would say that something like 99+ percent of all GSDs are ordinary family dogs that don't do much of any of those things. The reason they are ordinary family dogs is because they make great family dogs and most people just don't have much use for a Schutzhund dog. If people here don't know enough about GSDs to recognize that, then they have a problem.
>A 120 pound GSD, while capable in theory of doing all of this, is
>nonetheless disadvantaged by his size, and is more likely to have
>structural problems. Most working dogs, except for draft, livestock
>guardian, and mastiff type breeds (Great Pyrenees, Bernese
>mountain dogs, Caucasian Ovcharka (sp), Bull Mastiffs, etc) are
>medium to medium-large size (GSD, Malinois, Dutch Shepherds,
>Australian Shepherd, on and on, including the sporting breeds, setters,
>pointers, etc) There is a reason these dogs are sized as they are.
Yeah, I recognize the reasons why working dogs should be certain sizes. I would hope that others could recognize that the vast majority of people have no such requirements in a dog. The vast majority of GSDs never really "work". Therefore, large size is not a handicap for a dog that is not going to be jumping over barriers.
>You are right about people having GSD that weigh over 100 pounds.
>I have seen them. My own first GSD was a large male, at about 90
>pounds and he was pretty good sized, but I'd guess not over 26" at
>the shoulder. The fact remains that breeders who intentionally breed for
>oversize GSDs are doing so because they are breeding dogs for the
>money and have no concern for the breed they are adding to.
Pardon me for saying so, but that sounds like a hasty generalization. I see no particular reason why someone could not be devoted to breeding very large, healthy, and otherwise sound GSDs, and doing so honestly. In fact, I have run into a couple of them myself.
>I say adding, because it's not a contribution to bring in oversize dogs,
>any more than it would be to breed for mini GSDs.
That rather depends on what you want the dog to do, doesn't it? Like any other engineering problem. It's not like every GSD is going to be required to jump ten-foot barriers as a part of their standard day. The vast majority of them are going to spend most of their days getting their ears pulled on by kids, etc.
>I agree with the above post that Shilohs seem to be more what you're
>looking for.
I was wondering if there were other options. Like I said, I don't see "big GSD" and "good ethics" as being mutually exclusive.
>I know you said pure GSD, but simply put, I wouldn't trust a dog from
>any breeder deliberately breeding for such a huge size, since there are
>a limited number of such large dogs, and therefore a very limited gene
>pool...It's enough of a crapshoot with the gene pool we already have
>in the normal sized dogs.
It seems that you can't ask any question about a GSD without someone telling you that it is a crap shoot for one reason or another. It seems that american bred GSDs have some serious problems with reputation, whether it is true or not. But, obviously, very good very large dogs of the GSD line do exist, b
by wdog86 on 28 June 2009 - 07:06
>I too have seen dogs as you describe.
>I don't know why you asked here tho.
Because 1) one of my requirements is something out of the GSD line and 2) it seemed like there ought to be rational, friendly people familiar with GSDs and related dogs in such a forum and 3) it never really occurred to me that a question that I have heard from numerous other people would violate any sacred rules.
So I was apparently wrong, and there are apparently a lot of people out there who have no clue that lots of people have GSDs that are never anything more than pets and don't really care that their particular family pet doesn't meet some arbitrarily defined standard for show dogs, or whatever.
>I don't know why you asked here tho.
Because 1) one of my requirements is something out of the GSD line and 2) it seemed like there ought to be rational, friendly people familiar with GSDs and related dogs in such a forum and 3) it never really occurred to me that a question that I have heard from numerous other people would violate any sacred rules.
So I was apparently wrong, and there are apparently a lot of people out there who have no clue that lots of people have GSDs that are never anything more than pets and don't really care that their particular family pet doesn't meet some arbitrarily defined standard for show dogs, or whatever.
by Two Moons on 28 June 2009 - 07:06
What you have are the opinions of what, seven or eight people?
Its late night also.
Don't judge the cake by the crumb you picked up off the floor.
So now what?
Moons.
Its late night also.
Don't judge the cake by the crumb you picked up off the floor.
So now what?
Moons.
by Two Moons on 28 June 2009 - 07:06
Oh well, I got better things to do.
Night.
Night.
by wdog86 on 28 June 2009 - 08:06
>What you have are the opinions of what, seven or eight people?
>Its late night also.
>Don't judge the cake by the crumb you picked up off the floor.
I will try not to. On the other hand, it seems that most of the people seem to think the whole cake is like that.
>So now what?
I don't know. I was looking for other ideas when I came in here. Surely there must be someone out there who has some other ideas and won't get into a fit because someone asked. I could be wrong, though.
>Its late night also.
>Don't judge the cake by the crumb you picked up off the floor.
I will try not to. On the other hand, it seems that most of the people seem to think the whole cake is like that.
>So now what?
I don't know. I was looking for other ideas when I came in here. Surely there must be someone out there who has some other ideas and won't get into a fit because someone asked. I could be wrong, though.
by AnjaBlue on 28 June 2009 - 13:06
http://legacygermanshepherds.homestead.com
I believe this is what you are looking for. Prices start at $2500 though, so you may have to dig deep in your wallet. I found it on Bing - you can do the same by checking any Search engine, and you may find a breeder who is willing to sell for less. In the USA however I think you will find that bigger doesn't just mean better (and I'm being facetious) it means more expensive.What people here are trying to tell you is that bigger DOESN'T mean better - hips and longevity are almost always compromised once you start going over the breed standard. No dog weighing 120+ lbs is going to live as long as one weighing 85, unless it is the standard for that breed (Mastiff e.g.) The other thing which struck me from your post is the fact that you are very impressed with a dog you knew which was a "crowd stopper". Perhaps this is the real reason you want a GSD so oversized - to impress others?
I believe this is what you are looking for. Prices start at $2500 though, so you may have to dig deep in your wallet. I found it on Bing - you can do the same by checking any Search engine, and you may find a breeder who is willing to sell for less. In the USA however I think you will find that bigger doesn't just mean better (and I'm being facetious) it means more expensive.What people here are trying to tell you is that bigger DOESN'T mean better - hips and longevity are almost always compromised once you start going over the breed standard. No dog weighing 120+ lbs is going to live as long as one weighing 85, unless it is the standard for that breed (Mastiff e.g.) The other thing which struck me from your post is the fact that you are very impressed with a dog you knew which was a "crowd stopper". Perhaps this is the real reason you want a GSD so oversized - to impress others?
by Red Sable on 28 June 2009 - 13:06
In my honest opinion, there are great shepherds that grow to the top of the standard, 26 inches that weigh 90-100lbs and are really a good sized dog, very imposing and big enough in my opinion. A dog any larger, (which my neighbour has a LSC show line that must be 28 inches), doesn't look attractive to me. Too long and gangly, (mind you he is thin to boot), but not proportioned in my opinion.
What Moons said was really really true. When a breeder starts breeding for one trait, in this case extra large shepherds, they let other really important traits fall to the wayside.
What Moons said was really really true. When a breeder starts breeding for one trait, in this case extra large shepherds, they let other really important traits fall to the wayside.
by VonIsengard on 28 June 2009 - 14:06
Why not look into a King Shepherd? And from what it sounds like, I can tell you a BRT will be WAY too much dog for you.
What you are essentially asking is, "hey, I need to find a breeder who doesn't give a crap about the GSD" You can find your oversize GSD, but you will have no guarantee on any of the other things you want. People who breed dogs that big choose their stock based soley on size, nothing else. And you will pay at least four times what the dog is actually worth, because those "breeders" seem to think they have something special.
What you are essentially asking is, "hey, I need to find a breeder who doesn't give a crap about the GSD" You can find your oversize GSD, but you will have no guarantee on any of the other things you want. People who breed dogs that big choose their stock based soley on size, nothing else. And you will pay at least four times what the dog is actually worth, because those "breeders" seem to think they have something special.
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