DEFINE THE TERM "NERVY" DOGS - Page 3

Oh, you are fine with words and describing your affection for this dog. I know this dog very well as I have followed him for the last 5 years and he never dissapoints.

It is apparent that you like him a lot. And you should, he is all he is cracked up to be. If I didn't already have a dog, I'd have been in Alabama last year spending a week in her town and visiting pups daily, but choices have been made and I am happy and content with my choice. If I had to start with a pup again, it'd be from him and a quality female bred with him.

When I am looking for a dog (or at a dog) I always look for the dog that has "it". So, what is "it"? Difficult to describe but impossible to miss.

Mike Diehl's dog Erri, also has "it".

I never look, or particularly like - "points dogs", I like a dog with a distinct personality, a little rebelious, little bit of a mischevious ass, with a well defined and unique personality and character.

For me, winning is not as important as "quality and great competing".

With all that said, I am glad you have a pup (or a dog) rather out of him and that your faith in GSD is restored. Remember, the journey is sometimes more fun than the ultimate destination and from what you write you had a looong journey.

RDH,
It would seem that at some point someone needs to come up with solid definitions of all terms such as "Nervy", sharp, hard, couragous etc.  Often we are talking apples and oranges, and as yet some terms such as nervy come up and it goes in many directions.

If for example, "nervy is defined by a dog having a low threshold to stimuli, any type of stimuli, then this term "nervy" is niether good nor bad.  It depends on what the dogs other attributes or flaws bring to the table.  For example, if a dog is defined as nervy, highly or easily moved to react, over stimulated at the slightest thing, yet is quite confident, bold or fearless,(so to speak) then "nervy" is a good thing.  As Gustov mentioned, this is a traight that was sought after in dogs of the past, (that is if you are defining nervy as low threshold to stimuli).  Of course, this trait is good if the dog has the tools to follow up on his reaction to the stimuli.  I am guessing this is what Gustov was alluding to when he spoke of this as a possitive for working dogs.  If this is the definition of nervy, then I want nervy with strength of charactor, or confidence.

If "nervy" is not backed up with strength and confidence in the dog, then you have a nervous wreck.  I am not going to get into a definition for this term as it seems that many have different opinions on this and I would only add to the confusion.  For years I have heard people refer to a sharp dog as being a dog that reacts out of an unhealthy fear.  This is not how I define sharpness, and in fact, I like a degree of sharpness. 

I think it would be good to see some of these terms examined at length, then someone or some authority, ( now that would be fun to watch the battle) could define them.  Many terms have changed meaning over the years, and some new ones have popped up,  so it gets back to what I call common sense.  I know what I like in a dog and what I don't like in a dog and I judge a dog by my criterea, not by terms.  Any time we start talking about certain traits in a dog it is critical to look at the whole picture.  It is IMO impossible to take one trait and examine it by itself, this would not give a true overall picture of who the dog is.

olskoolgsd-- For example, if a dog is defined as nervy, highly or easily moved to react, over stimulated at the slightest thing, yet is quite confident, bold or fearless,(so to speak) then "nervy" is a good thing.---With this statement, could it be referred to in tiekerhook lines? Someone posted in my thread about "tiekerhook breedings in the USA" that tiekerhook produces nervy dogs. In what way?

Yes, the term is confusing for me to understand. I have recieved some info from above.. so I have a better understanding. I just have to get around more working dogs to get an idea when the term applies. So my friends dutchie is environmental nervy. What does that mean?? Does it mean he doesn't have enough confidence in a new environment or something along those lines?

 It is IMO impossible to take one trait and examine it by itself, this would not give a true overall picture of who the dog is.---that does make sense.



ADI--Mike Diehl's dog Erri, also has "it".--I'm glad you mention his name. That is one of the kennels I have plan to visit. I notice you said your not interested in other types of dogs only gsd. What is it about the gsd do you love so much (besides the movie)?? Just curious. My friend and I had a debate 2months ago about what dog is closer(similar) to the gsd. She said the dutchie is according to some findings she read. What do you think about that?

RDH,
I can not speak directly of the Tiekerhook lines other than that they are solid dogs.  I will say that I do not equate "low threshold " dogs as being a negative in itself or that it means a dog is nervy in a negative sense.  This is the problem I have with the use of terms.  A low threshold dog is not a fearful dog or any other thing in itself.  It depends on what other charactoristics the dog brings to the table.

 You said, "I just have to get around more working dogs to learn when that term applies".  Not necessarily.  Many folks use a term out of contex with the overall picture of the dog.  What I would recomend is doing lots of reading and thinking.  Watch different dogs and see why they are reacting the way they are and under what circumstances.  Always look at the whole picture.  People can help, but also confuse.  Dogs will not lie to you.  They will always show you who they are.  They are not concerned with looking good, they will just show you who they are.  This is what I love about socializing, testing the dog under different circumstances and then helping THEM to work through it. This topic can get much deeper, but for now do as you are doing and after awhile it will make more sense to you. 

Thank you oldskool for adding that perspective.  Like yourself, I prefer a dog with lower thresholds to stimuli, and generally avoid using the word "nervy" because of the negative connotation often associated with it.  Adi's derisive comments about the trait are understandable, but should be reminded that it can be a matter of preference, rather than an mandate of what is "correct" for the breed.  I wouldn't disagree at all that Zidane is a solid dog himself, just not to my personal taste as I'd prefer more sharpness for work.  Of course to enjoy the full benefits of a sharp dog, this must be accompanied with the characteristics that offer a clear head and level of confidence with full and firm biting capabilities.  Coupled with a strong desire for work and a high level of handler willingness, can be a most rewarding experience.

In a good working dog you should see low threshold for desirable traits and high threshold for undesireable traits.does any body here know what i am talking about?.and if you do then you r a person who does not need to be told what a nervy dog is. have a nice one

"In a good working dog you should see low threshold for desirable traits and high threshold for undesireable traits."

Dammit. Here is am writing a damn War and Peace novel above and here comes the guy , swooped in nonchalantly then drops a bomb and sums up in 1 short sentence all my other babbling. Damn you and thank you. That's it, in a nutshell, you summed it up.

Oldschool:

1) "If for example, "nervy is defined by a dog having a low threshold to stimuli, any type of stimuli, then this term "nervy" is niether good nor bad. " - I agree with this statement.

2) For example, if a dog is defined as nervy, highly or easily moved to react, over stimulated at the slightest thing, yet is quite confident, bold or fearless,(so to speak) then "nervy" is a good thing.  -  I agree with this too. The problem is, dog like this is harder to find and garder to predict it will be like that by just looking at the puppy.

3) "If "nervy" is not backed up with strength and confidence in the dog, then you have a nervous wreck." - We have a winner. Unfortunately, most of the dogs that apply to that definition are like that. sadly.

Daryl Ehret:
1) "Adi's derisive comments about the trait are understandable, but should be reminded that it can be a matter of preference, rather than an mandate of what is "correct" for the breed."  - ABSOLUTELY agree. I wasn't trying to be derisive, and I always point out stuff like "to me", "in my opinion", "what I think". There is no mandate here. I am smart enough and know enough to know that I don't know shit. The more I know and the more I discover, the more I realize how little do I know - if that makes sense.

2) "I wouldn't disagree at all that Zidane is a solid dog himself, just not to my personal taste as I'd prefer more sharpness for work." - Absolutely agree. I porefer a dog like him, others do not, it's just a matter of personal preference, nothing wrong or right about it, just a personal preference.

3) "Of course to enjoy the full benefits of a sharp dog, this must be accompanied with the characteristics that offer a clear head and level of confidence with full and firm biting capabilities. Coupled with a strong desire for work and a high level of handler willingness, can be a most rewarding experience." Yes, all correct. Such dogs are pretty hard to find.

RDH: "What is it about the gsd do you love so much (besides the movie)?? Just curious. My friend and I had a debate 2months ago about what dog is closer(similar) to the gsd. She said the dutchie is according to some findings she read. What do you think about that?" - Why GSD? I prefer his company to many individuals of my own kind, just like he prefers mine over his species. That GSD in essence is a thinking dog, first and foremost, smart, loyal and adaptable and is not just a flea collecting "pet". That we are on the same "wavelength" and we are true friends and a team. Although, I don't have pointy ears and he does like Batman's costume, he is Robin, a true. cool sidekick.

About a Dutch Shepherd. I like Dutch Shepherd alright, among other things they have GSD blood in them. I wouldn't mind owning one, but then again, I don't mind not owning one, either. A good dog is a good dog, no matter the breed, I just prefer GSD over any other.

ADI--Gotcha. I thought the malinois was the closest to the GSD.  I like to compare and contrast the 3 breeds. Overall, I like the gsd to.

oldskool--Yup, I've did alot of reading on dogs in general (behavior). Just couldn't find too much on the term. I spend quit a bit of time at the dog park and observe dog interaction and body languages when i take my dobie there. I plan to get into the PSA  and french ring field pretty soon so I try to soak up all the information that I can before starting training and then learn more on the way.

I don't mean to rehatch a debate that seems to have settled, but throughout today I was thinking about this topic and here's what I've come up with to dumb it down for myself as I too find it confusing when a term seems to be applied for different things.  I am always a student, and open to hearing why I am incorrect based on others' experiences.  Here goes:

The "reaction" can be broken into 3 main parts.  First, is the alertness, or the threshold needed to cause any reaction.  Most guard dogs and herding breeds need to have a medium to low alertness/stimulus threshold.  This alertness makes the dog more preceptive, but also more stressed in general.  When a dog goes to a new environment, this is often increased.

The second part would be the intensity in which the dog reacts.  This varies by the dogs drives, in this case we are talking about their defense drive.  This can be influenced by the amount of energy the dog has on a particular day and at a particular time.  More energy = more reaction.

The last part would be the confidence level, and the fight/flight response.  While this is partly genetic, it is also determined by environmental learning (associations, learned behavior, socialization, etc.). 

The reason why I think we can't get the definition of "nervy" straight is because if any one of the above are too strong, the dog can be labeled as such.  And, as for the breed, it is difficult to breed it out because a dog can compensate for a weakness in one area with strength in the others... and, of course, a certain degree of "weakness" is desirable for many types of work.  Now for definitions, I suppose I would say the first part is where strong, weak, etc. nerves should come in.  The second part is where I would put the term sharp (a lot of defense) and stable.  And I would use the terms confident and insecure for the last part.  A dog that is insecure may be a fighter as well... think of fear biter.  But that's just what I came up with today... all ears to hear what others think.