GERMAN TV PROGRAMME - ABOUT THE GSD - Page 3

The frequency of HD is about 30% in the breed here in sweden, where many dogs are x-rayed, in germany I´ve read it´s even higher , probably due to the fact that x-rays are not done in the same amount and breeding with C-hips is also OK I believe. Is 30% HD good statistics when a breed like the malinois is way below that? That the GSD also have pretty much problems with allergies, itching and other issues is no secret either. When it come to the mentality of the show GSDs it´s obvius they can´t compare in general with mals or working GSDs, you don´t see them in any bigger competitions and nowadays very few of them cut the grade as police/militarydogs, and if you found one that do you better hope he has a body for hard work, and no other helath issues that will put  him out of service. This is statistics and general knowledge that you can´t argue with.

Many good arguments on both sides. My experience told me that there are good & bad in all lines. I have seen Malis with tremendous health & temperment problems, there are workinglines with the same problems, as well as there are showlines with these problems. Why is it that these arguments always surface in regards to showlines ? May it be possible that there are more showlines born each year than workinglines ?(so you hear more about that ?) If you would want an unbiased outlook on that, you would have to have numbers and put that into a percentige. And if you do that, you will find out rather quick that it is not catastrophic. I agree, each single case of bad health, is one too much and we should strive to eliminate as much as we can. And yes, we see allergies, bad hips, bad ellbows, yes again we should keep the genepool as wide as we can. How about the enviromental part of all this ? Mention to a Puppy buyer that this is a working dog breed and that there is just nothing wrong with a GSD beeing in a kennel, even in low temperatures. Or try to explain to them that many of these health issues are closely related to the food they eat. Times have changed, so did the outlook on our dogs. For new puppy buyers, it is hard to grasp, that the "good" behaviour of many dogs came with a pricetag, the price of working & training with our dogs. They dont realize that it is very time consuming, and that if they dont give a GSD a "Job" these temperemental issues arise.Ever tried to sell Pups from a NO Name sire ? Good luck, and this counts for all lines.

Jennie, just how much service dogs do we need ? I for my part am happy to see that many dogs just do SchH and otherwise are the sweetest dogs. I dont even want to imagine what would happen when unexperienced, new owners to the breed would get too drivy dogs. Neverless, I stick to it, if you have a puppy, regardless out of which lines, and raise it acording to your needs from start, you will most likely get the result you are looking for.

Nice thread - thanks to all of you - keep it civilized !    Ulli

Jennie: provide your statistical references: as any serious and authentic STATISTICAL study requires. Hearing a few comments, or reading a few comments or statements, DOES NOT CONSTITUTE ACCEPTABLE STATISTICAL RESEARCH.
So YES I can argue with your comments above. Now please explain what you mean by GENERAL KNOWLEDGE, it frequently means HEARSAY. Perhaps MANY PEOPLE should learn about HEARSAY. - HEARSAY DOES NOT EQUAL FACT.

See the TV programme here (German Language)

http://www.swr.de/betrifft/schaeferhund-zucht-tiermedizin/-/id=98466/did=4506134/pv=video/gp1=4658760/nid=98466/1jk4cx5/index.html

David, thank you for the link. I watched the programme in its entirety and found it of some interest, but fail to see it as a true all-encompassing and factual documentary. As with similar "information" programmes stateside it seems to go after a sensational bias rather than relying on reams of data. In essence, a drama more than a documentary.

Our GSD has reigned supreme during its 120-year evolution, and is still the most recognizable dog in the world. This alone says that the breed is prolific in its ability to change a bit with the times. And of course that constant change has been guided by the ideas of breeders, as well as breed clubs and kennel clubs.

We all; me included, have our own ideals about the breed as far as what constitutes a "correct" GSD. Our ideals are from the section of the GSD environment that has impressed us. Is our modern dog "worse" than the dogs of yesteryear? In what way, and can anything be proven? I tend to examine things from an engineer's point of view, and when I hear many assertations my usual counter is "Oh yeah? Prove it!" Essentially, show me the data.

And of course data can be skewed to present or promote a biased view of any subject, especially if the data is not "clean". How about oft-touted compression of the genetic pool to that of but a few lines? Is that really true? Lest anyone forgets, our GSD began as the product of but a handful of sires and dams. Now, if that is not compression I do not know what is.

I repeat this so often in posts where health and vitality is the subject. Our GSD is a canine, and still reproduces as does a canine. If life was fair; there would be no need for a bitch to produce so many puppies in a litter and have so many litters in a lifetime. That alone tells me that in spite of the best breeding practices, genetic testing, etc. that nature still reigns supreme and in the "wild" world, the percentage of GSD's (also any other canine genus) who survive from birth to procreate themselves would be in the single digits.

Again, I appreciate the link, and feel we must all view such programmes with an open mind that allows us to consider other sources of information.

Best Regards,
Bob-O

Videx, My assertion is only my opinion. It happens to coincide with these reports and has been articulated far before these reports. How valid is my opinion???? That's up to the credibility I have acquired in peoples mind as to what I assert. I will say this.....You can only have a point of reference on whether the majority GS of today have declined in working ability if you were in a position to see the GS of thirty years ago work and compare it to today. Now if you were involved with working dogs back then and are still involved with working dogs today I would say your opinion is even more informed. Many people who comment on these subjects don't even know what the "general working capabilty" was thirty years ago. Others were around at the time but was not involved in maintaining or working thier  dogs allowing what has occurred to evolve. Lastly, I always ask that people take a consensus from programs/schools that produce police/military/ SAR dogs so that we get an informed opinion as to today. This always gets ignored as God forbid we don't want real practitioners to weigh in.  Videx, there is no need for me or anyone else to provide statistics(though police schools and Lackland AFB certainly could) to you because it won't change your mind as I won't change my mind. So it comes down to reality of the status of the breed and if you are right, then organizations like RS2000, will not have an impact on the current GS scene.  As the dogs we currently have are fine working dogs and working practitioners just don't realize their value. We'll see, but in the meantime there is no reason to be concerned with the RS2000 or any of these media programs if the basic GS is sound and secure.

Hi Bob,
nice to see that you are up & kicking ! Hope everything is well with you and your family.
Well said, it happens all too often that the natural side is pushed out too far.  Ulli

Videx, the GSD-club in sweden have lots of statistics about HD/ED or statistics from mentalitytests done here based on kennels, certain studs and so on, this is free for all to see and no hearsay. HD in the whole population has been around 30% the last 10 years according to that statistic. By general knowledge you just have to look at the lack of showline dog in workingcompetitions or ask people which job is to select dogs for service, if you breed a dog for looks and only small demands on physical and mental qualities it´s no wonder the dog will suffer after some time.