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by hodie on 25 March 2009 - 17:03
If you have to come here to ask a question about how to deal with other dog aggression, despite having so many dogs, I think you may be a bit naive about what you do and do not know. No one is bashing you, but from your posts, and especially how you think you should correct (when it obviously has not worked), I doubt you will get much here. The bottom line? There are dogs whom a simple voice command or a firm "no" is all that is needed. There are others that require something else. And yes, there are dogs who require some sort of physical correction so that they know who is in charge. You are not in charge with this dog and it understands that and this does not bode well for correcting the situation unless you really do come here with an open mind.
Fear, by the way, can be possible in this situation. It is always possible for a dog to be comfortable with dogs it knows, dogs in its own territory and when off leash (and it has some control over running or standing its ground). Often owners do make things worse because if you are tense and unsure, the dog will sense that right through the leash and by the chemicals you give off etc.
If you don't get a handle on this soon, you may well be in for more than you can handle.
Fear, by the way, can be possible in this situation. It is always possible for a dog to be comfortable with dogs it knows, dogs in its own territory and when off leash (and it has some control over running or standing its ground). Often owners do make things worse because if you are tense and unsure, the dog will sense that right through the leash and by the chemicals you give off etc.
If you don't get a handle on this soon, you may well be in for more than you can handle.
by violet on 25 March 2009 - 17:03
well i've had a word with my bitches breeder and we've come up with a couple of ideas to help. I'm going to give a half check a go as the flat collar correction isn't doing anything. Would a scruffing not lead to handler aggression? thats what i've been led to believe in the past. We are also going to have a go with some sort of spray to try and get her focus off the barking or the dogs before hand. She is speaking to a couple of friends of hers with lots of different dogs to try and have a go at sorting this, try lots of situations etc. Hopefully that combined with more decisive action from me and the training will solve this issue. Yes i have been going softly, but more because i didn't want to make the problem worse. If i have to use a sharper correction i will if needs must, as much as i dislike it. I prefer positive rewards for training, as i'm sure alot of people do. I'm used to nervous dogs, so a bold dog is new for me!
btw she is currently not always walked with our other dogs while she is in training. I prefer her to walk with our JRT or on her own as he is completely oblivious to other dogs, but while she is like this i would prefer to work with her one on one to try and maintain her focus.
I really do appreciate the advice on here...i may consider the scruffing if nothing else works, but she is getting a big girl already and i think doing that will hurt her, my dad scruffed our old dog a few times when i was a kid and i admit it did the job, but hearing the poor dog yowling was not nice.
I'll come back in a couple of days and let you guys know how we are getting on.I do try to be as open-minded as possible, but i do love my dog very much and find the harsher techniques seem to work better with shepherds that are pushy, as much as i hate to admit it, i'm obviously not being as firm as i know i should be
btw she is currently not always walked with our other dogs while she is in training. I prefer her to walk with our JRT or on her own as he is completely oblivious to other dogs, but while she is like this i would prefer to work with her one on one to try and maintain her focus.
I really do appreciate the advice on here...i may consider the scruffing if nothing else works, but she is getting a big girl already and i think doing that will hurt her, my dad scruffed our old dog a few times when i was a kid and i admit it did the job, but hearing the poor dog yowling was not nice.
I'll come back in a couple of days and let you guys know how we are getting on.I do try to be as open-minded as possible, but i do love my dog very much and find the harsher techniques seem to work better with shepherds that are pushy, as much as i hate to admit it, i'm obviously not being as firm as i know i should be
by Two Moons on 25 March 2009 - 17:03
Just curious,
What is scruffing?
Go with some sort of spray? Also explain.
Very curious.
What is scruffing?
Go with some sort of spray? Also explain.
Very curious.
by violet on 25 March 2009 - 18:03
scruffing is what 4pack said they did with a pup picking it up by the scruff
some sort of spray, maybe a citronella spray or a water spray like you would get on a collar to stop unwanted behaviour but without the collar using a mini handheld spray bottle for example. You use the spray at the time of the unwanted behaviour to deter that behaviour from being re-produced.
some sort of spray, maybe a citronella spray or a water spray like you would get on a collar to stop unwanted behaviour but without the collar using a mini handheld spray bottle for example. You use the spray at the time of the unwanted behaviour to deter that behaviour from being re-produced.
by Two Moons on 25 March 2009 - 18:03
I hadn't read 4packs post clearly, yeah thats one way to deal with a pup.
This spray thing is new to me.
I train much differently thats for sure.
Thanks for explaining.
This spray thing is new to me.
I train much differently thats for sure.
Thanks for explaining.
by violet on 25 March 2009 - 18:03
how do you train then two moons?? just curious, everyone has their own way don't they! i love listening to how other people work :)
by 4pack on 25 March 2009 - 18:03
You can scruff her without picking her up. I just scruffed my 2.5 yr old male last week, I pushed him down puting him in a submisive position beneath me and gave him a butt chewing, "no you will not do that" and by my face and hand gestures, he got the point. Being firm with your dog will not make it aggressive towards you. Dogs made to obey rules will "respect" you. Very few dogs get agro with their owners and those that do, were either born nuts or pushed into it by unfair handling. A few butt chewings here and there to make your dog a safe and decent public citizen will not drive it to handler aggression. If you keep letting her get away with this, she will turn dog aggressive however.
by Elkoorr on 25 March 2009 - 18:03
Having dealt with the same thing last year with my own pup, I am telling you that this is a confidence issue on the pup as well as on you. I agree with others that you need to nip it in the but while it is still a minor problem before it becomes a nightmare. I might sound harsh, but there is no sugar coating with that, you have to be physical with your corrections. A pop with the leash will not do. You have to use a strong touch with a strong presence behind it. The pup needs to feel that you absolutely mean it.
To do that, you have to be totally honest to yourself and try to find out what are you worried about, and get over those feelings. One thing you already said, your are worried you end up with an agressive dog. Observe yourself, what are your thoughts when you are out with your pup and come across a strange dog? Your body language will follow your thoughts, and your pup will follow your body language. You are probably tense enough that your pup picks up on it. If dogs you know come over, you are probably more relaxed. Start working on yourself. Its not easy, I know!
Your pup is very selfconfident, but still unsecure towards dogs she doesnt know. For some reason she learnt that by barking, growling, charching she was able to overcome that unsecureness boosting her stamina. There is always an initial event, but its difficult to find out exactly what it was. Now the slightest unsecureness associated with other dogs from you or from her will trigger that response. While physically correcting that behavior you have to be totally emotionless, no frustrations, no second thoughts, no sorry, no worries. Just reaction to a cause. If you are with dogs all your life, then you should be able to pick up on the slightest changes in their expression before the abvious. A stiff look, a slight lifting of the lip and you have to get into her with a strong meaningful touch pushing her basical out of balance for a second, you can do that with your hand or with your leg. You can say No or Hey, the deeper the voice the better. But not more, no emotions, no Jaddyjaddyjaaa... If you dont get her attention, increase the intensity. Once you snapped her out continue your walk completely ignoring the other dog.
Supervised socialization. Would be great if you could find a trainer who does offer such classes as they will bring in frequently known, but also new dogs. My pup wore a muzzle the first few times. She was allowed to sniff other dogs, and she had to let them sniff her, which she absolutely did not like, I had to hold her. The slightest onset of antisocial behavior was corrected. A curious look with the nose going forward was rewarded. It helped tremendously by me becoming more acceptable and happy of new dogs by petting and interacting with them if the owner agreed. My pup went trough all kinds of stages while correcting this behavior problem, including shyness, fear, avoidance and then the "miracle" starting to playfully interact not just with known dogs, but also with newcomers. Now, a year later, she is great with other dogs and I am using her in socializing pups which come for training to me. Our bond is very strong, she learnt to trustfully follow my lead, and I learnt to trust her too and keep my emotions in check. Her behavior started at 4 1/2 months old. wish you the best!
To do that, you have to be totally honest to yourself and try to find out what are you worried about, and get over those feelings. One thing you already said, your are worried you end up with an agressive dog. Observe yourself, what are your thoughts when you are out with your pup and come across a strange dog? Your body language will follow your thoughts, and your pup will follow your body language. You are probably tense enough that your pup picks up on it. If dogs you know come over, you are probably more relaxed. Start working on yourself. Its not easy, I know!
Your pup is very selfconfident, but still unsecure towards dogs she doesnt know. For some reason she learnt that by barking, growling, charching she was able to overcome that unsecureness boosting her stamina. There is always an initial event, but its difficult to find out exactly what it was. Now the slightest unsecureness associated with other dogs from you or from her will trigger that response. While physically correcting that behavior you have to be totally emotionless, no frustrations, no second thoughts, no sorry, no worries. Just reaction to a cause. If you are with dogs all your life, then you should be able to pick up on the slightest changes in their expression before the abvious. A stiff look, a slight lifting of the lip and you have to get into her with a strong meaningful touch pushing her basical out of balance for a second, you can do that with your hand or with your leg. You can say No or Hey, the deeper the voice the better. But not more, no emotions, no Jaddyjaddyjaaa... If you dont get her attention, increase the intensity. Once you snapped her out continue your walk completely ignoring the other dog.
Supervised socialization. Would be great if you could find a trainer who does offer such classes as they will bring in frequently known, but also new dogs. My pup wore a muzzle the first few times. She was allowed to sniff other dogs, and she had to let them sniff her, which she absolutely did not like, I had to hold her. The slightest onset of antisocial behavior was corrected. A curious look with the nose going forward was rewarded. It helped tremendously by me becoming more acceptable and happy of new dogs by petting and interacting with them if the owner agreed. My pup went trough all kinds of stages while correcting this behavior problem, including shyness, fear, avoidance and then the "miracle" starting to playfully interact not just with known dogs, but also with newcomers. Now, a year later, she is great with other dogs and I am using her in socializing pups which come for training to me. Our bond is very strong, she learnt to trustfully follow my lead, and I learnt to trust her too and keep my emotions in check. Her behavior started at 4 1/2 months old. wish you the best!
by july9000 on 25 March 2009 - 22:03
Wow great post Elkoor..I agree 100%..couldn't have said it better..
by Vixen on 26 March 2009 - 11:03
Hello Violet,
Could I ask about your dogs interaction with you INDOORS?
For instance, if you told your Puppy and the Older dogs to lay down in your Living Room (somewhere you choose, NOT their beds or THEIR particular favourite area), now you sat down with a friend with a cup of coffee and a chat, how long would they remain there?
Secondly, when you say "Sit", do they do this straight away, or do you need to repeat? (honestly now) ! lol
When you CALL the puppy when she is PLAYING with the adults, does she always come immediately.
Equally, the same with the adults, would one come immediately if playing with the other adult or puppy?
Will your dogs remain in another room with the door open (no baby gate etc) while you are in the adjoining room?
When you are training with one of the adults either indoors or the garden, where is the other adult?
Better stop there, don't want to flood you!!!
Regards, Vixen
Could I ask about your dogs interaction with you INDOORS?
For instance, if you told your Puppy and the Older dogs to lay down in your Living Room (somewhere you choose, NOT their beds or THEIR particular favourite area), now you sat down with a friend with a cup of coffee and a chat, how long would they remain there?
Secondly, when you say "Sit", do they do this straight away, or do you need to repeat? (honestly now) ! lol
When you CALL the puppy when she is PLAYING with the adults, does she always come immediately.
Equally, the same with the adults, would one come immediately if playing with the other adult or puppy?
Will your dogs remain in another room with the door open (no baby gate etc) while you are in the adjoining room?
When you are training with one of the adults either indoors or the garden, where is the other adult?
Better stop there, don't want to flood you!!!
Regards, Vixen
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