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by missbeeb on 27 February 2009 - 13:02
I don't think what you describe, is followed by too many breeders! Most breed to the standard... the German standard, that's what allows them to show in Germany or under visting SV judges!
Clearly, you don't like what's in todays "German" ring, since you say, I have German bred dogs also - both working and show 'type' and no, the public have no problem recognising them either. I didn't say that recognisable ones didn't exist. Indeed they form part of my breeding! they just have not been selected because a prominent judge has said 'this dog has the best banana back and the most excellent wobblyest hocks I have ever seen"
You've heard judges say that? No, of course you haven't you're just being a bit of a rude ass... we already have our quota of those.
Quote: Some of my pups do go as pets (as most breeders have pups that do - let's be honest). Many of my dogs have gone into working roles: several are herding sheep, some are Police dogs, one is a specialist assistance dog to a disabled person, some are doing schutzhund, working trials, obedience or agility. My next suitable pup may well be donated to local search and rescue.
Wow... how many pups have you produced in your short ten years in the breed, without showing or working?
by panzerhund on 27 February 2009 - 14:02
Of course I haven't heard a judge say those things - I thought that would be pretty obvious! BUT from the viewpoint of any member of the public without specialist knowledge of the breed, that is what (sometimes) can appear to be happening!
I felt it needed saying in such a strong (rude ass) way because there seems to be more than a little bit of "Emperor's Clothes" going on here.
My point was that my dogs are not selected because of show ring successes because, no, frankly I don't like much of what I'm seeing in the show ring today and that goes for any 'type' shown not just German show.
Hey, don't diss me for only having 10 years breeding experience - that's more than sufficient time to reach a reasonably specialist level of knowledge! How long are degree courses? How long do doctors study? It's also not so much time that my vision is blurred to what is happening to the breed.
Puppies? Well, that's an interesting one! Do you measure success on how many puppies you have produced? GOSH
- I have a maximum of two litters a year (. . .because I am not a puppy factory)
- my bitches are never bred back to back
- All my dogs get house time and individual attention / training (you see, I happen to think this is REALLY important)
- Pups are whelped and raised until 8 weeks in the house (large house & grounds)
- every pup has a 'vetted' home before they are even conceived
I have produced approx 55 pups and am in regular contact with most of their owners.
What's wrong with that?
by missbeeb on 27 February 2009 - 15:02
Quote: Puppies? Well, that's an interesting one! Do you measure success on how many puppies you have produced? GOSH
NO! It sounded like you'd had rather a lot to me!
OK, 10 years can be ample time to learn a lot, but don't expect to be taken seriously, when you "diss" us all by lumping us in the category of "fashion followers"! You don't want anything too line bred on Ursus? Not many want anything too line bred... full stop! Some of Ursus' lines... you've used yourself... Odin, Quando!
Showing or working your dogs, gives (hopefully) an honest opinion on ones stock, good or bad, I think a little of that (at least) is essential. To imagine that you're getting it right, whilst all others are falling by the wayside is unlikely. Let's be really honest... some people have been breeding poop for many, many years
and they're not done yet!Nobody likes a hocky dog (I have one... he has soft ears too... mmm, bonus
) and there are too many of them around. Most of the severe slopping that one sees, is in stance... placed like that by a handler.So... let's be nice, it's better... we can agree to disagree, so long as you remember this... women always win because we never forget... in another 10 years, I'll be able to throw your posts back at ya!!!
Deal?
by paulie on 27 February 2009 - 15:02
Hello all.
I think it's now time to suspend all further posts on this, and other similar ones, until after Crufts, when perhaps Brian will have some constructive news for us, i feel we should give our full support to any inroads made by Brian, if he is fortunate enough to be able to discuss our plight with any representative of the Press, or the KC for that matter, however informal. I wish him luck.
Regards Paul Rattigan.
by Sue B on 27 February 2009 - 15:02
I was never in any doubt that Brian would say YES and am absolutely delighted that he has confirmed this in his reply to you MO and the fact that he is even now going to Crufts when he had obviously not planned to this year.
As for the other things you have said Mo, I absolutely agree with you. I have had a quite a few interesting telephone chats with Brian over the past year, I actually rang him before Crufts last year to ask him if he would be willing to be the 'official' interpreter for our German visitors should any situation arise where we needed one, especially as Reinhard does not speak any English. Brian was the person I wanted to secure for the job (if needed) because I trusted him emphatically.
We spoke later in the year on how we at West Yks were annoyed that as the BC Elected KC Laison officer why Brian was not invited along to the KC to take part in the discussions re - changes to the standard held in Nov08. As the Official Elected BC Laison officer to me Brian Wooton is the FIRST person that the KC should invite to ANY Meeting they have regarding our breed. He should be the First name on the list before the BAGSD rep, the GSDL rep as he was democratically VOTED for by ALL THE BREED CLUBS therefore In my opinion he is the ONLY PERSON Officiall Elected to Collectively Represent all of us at the KC.
Regards
Sue
by panzerhund on 27 February 2009 - 16:02
David, thank you for the free advertising but I really wish you hadn't done that - I'm going to get even more demand for puppies that I can't fulfill.
Missbeeb, I hereby 'shake your hand' and agree to disagree after a good debate, but do realise that at I have been very careful to qualify the statements in my posts so as not to lump everyone together by using the words 'many' or 'much of'. I have also said that I will use German show lines in my breeding whenever I find a dog fitting my requirements. I am not imagining that I am getting it right while ALL OTHERS are falling by the wayside. I am trying my hardest to get it right and sometimes may not achieve this. I'm sure there are many others doing the same.
The main point of my posts here was not to blow my own trumpet and say 'hey aren't I wonderful'. I apologise if it has come across so.
My main aim was to say that I agree wholeheartedly with removing the word 'Alsatian' from the breed name BUT that I disagree completely with removing anything not of german show lines from the GSD breeding pool for reasons carefully stated in my first post on this subject. I don't think that this distinction has been made clearly enough and people may be 'voting' on what they purely believe to be the removal of the word 'Alsatian'.
I really wish we had debated this point instead!
Cheers
by Videx on 27 February 2009 - 16:02
by Sue B on 27 February 2009 - 19:02
Panzerhund you seem to have misunderstood. 'IF' the split were to come about, it wouldnt be up to ANYONE ELSE but YOU YOURSELF which Breed you chose you breeding to belong to. As breeder YOU and only YOU would make that decision. What I thought, or your best friend thought, worse enemy thought or even what your next door neighbour thought would be irrelevent because what YOU thought your breeding was is what it would be.
That said, I noted from your website you have a Videx female, well obviously that female would be a German Shepherd Dog because David & Rhoda Payne (as breeders of her) would wish all their breeding to be grouped with the German Shepherds.
You may have bred from her already and as breeder you would be the person to say which breed (GSD or Alsatian) the pups were but if you had bred her with (for arguments sake) a Kassieger male and as Jim and I want our breeding to be grouped as German Shepherd Dogs then it would make sense for you to group the offspring from a Videx to a Kassieger as GSD's but if you wanted to group their offspring as Alsatians that would be your choice but you would need to remember that from there-on-in these offspring could only ever be mated to / with others within the Alsatian group (breed).
Of course the other thing you would have to remember is ALL IMPORTS would automatically be German Shepherd Dogs because that is what the Imports Breeder would have registered it as (purely because the Alsatian Breed would not exist outside of the UK, therefore it would be impossible to Import one from another Country unless that country also decides to split the German Shepherd Dog into two seperate Breeds).
Personally I consider VERY FEW dogs to be Alsatians, I certainly do not consider what is loosely termed as Middle of the Road to be Alsatians, to me all those termed Middle of the Road are German Shepherd Dogs, but again, initially it would be up to the breeders of these dogs which they wanted them to become and that is as it should be, everyone able to choose their own path, even though I personally would hope they would choose to keep their breeding within the GSD Breed as to me that is what they are.
Hope this clears up any dillemas you might have had about how some of us view the dogs within this debate.
Regards
Sue
by panzerhund on 28 February 2009 - 13:02
Sue, yes, I have a Videx bitch. She is from Kimbo vom Monchberg x Yola von Fidelius. She is a beautiful girl with excellent character and has produced some very good off-spring (Videx Omar being one you may recognise), always to German line males. She is 10 years old and is my constant companion and much loved house dog.
I don't think I have misunderstood at all. I hope you haven't misunderstood me. I do not under any circumstance want any of my dogs / puppies to be registered as Alsatians! I merely seek to raise the issues of reducing the breeding pool and bottle-necking the bloodlines which would be an inevitable consequence of the proposals being made here. Many of the German show line dogs do not meet the SV breed standard either (in my opinion) so I need to be able to cast my net wider in search of suitable dogs for my breeding.
Consider this scenario: I may see a dog who (in my eyes) conforms nicely to the SV breed standard. He may have excellent hips and elbows and come from a long line of healthy, long lived dogs. He may have qualities I would like to bring into my breeding to correct or strengthen certain areas. What if I couldn't use him because someone (maybe someone who was not party to all this debate) had chosen to label him an Alsatian when he was registered as a puppy (perhaps because that's what they have always called them not becaue they are rampant 'Alsatianists')? What a shame!
by Videx on 28 February 2009 - 14:02
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