anyone get to the top without electric? - Page 3

July, So, anyone who does not subscribe to YOUR view has their head in the sand? Enough said. Grow up. Because some folks abuse the use of their cars by getting DUIs, we should term driving abusive, too, by your "enlightened" standards. What are you, 15?

Some say "force", others say "motivation".  Whichever the case, look to the dog.  If the dog shows any signs of avoidance it is then abuse.  It is easy enough to see.

July9000 - how many dogs have you titled now?  Where, when?  What club do you currently belong to?  Are you a paying (current) member of DVG or USA?  I ask as yet again, someone (you) who apparently has no idea of what motivation, careful cultivation and hours upon countless hours it takes to produce the results you see in Molly's pictures.  The point is that almost all dogs competing at Molly's level are trained in the same fashion - motivationally.  They would not make it onto the field at a national event otherwise, the pressure would be obvious.  I have belong to several clubs in been the sport for a few years now, I've *NEVER* seen a dog worked on less than a prong for most things and electric is a huge part of most "finishing" training.  Again (as described in another thread) in most cases, electric stim is no more than that of the annoyance of a fly that repeated lands on you during a walk - an irritation, no more.  Furthermore, electric collars cannot cause the physical trauma caused by slip collars and even prongs.  Helmut Raiser (who name should need no introduction if you are truly "in the sport" but for reference, the "father" of modern protection training) likens the suggestion of dog training without an ecollar to practicing medicine without penicillin.  He should know, he's a doctor (actually a dentist) as well.

 

So, again tell us how you’ve titled your dogs?

-Calvin

 

 July9000:

                          Or any one else reading this post, I do believe that before anyone can us electic they should charge it submerse there arm in water strap on the collar snugley on the soft inside skin bellow the elbow and start at 10 and go upward till they can,t take it any more just so they do realize just of effective it can be and also how easy it can be abused.

Been there, done that. 

Bob, absent the water part (why is that required?) been there done that and in fact repeat frequently to reaquaint myself.  Anyhow, I do agree with you.

I personally would not use the collar on a setting higher than I could use on myself, but frankly hae never come close to needing to go to a level that high.  Tritronic has 6 levels of stim, with 3 levels within each, for a total of 18 levels.

-Calvin

Can anyone play baseball without steroids?
How bout those olympics hey ?
I can't make it an hour, hell fifteen minutes in the morning without a smoke and some coffee.

Heaven forbid the loss of alcohol.
I remember my Grandfather getting his first cattle prod back in the sixties.   He didn't care for it much.
SSDD.

I didn't want this to turn into an electric is abuse discussion. I just wanted to know if there are any trainers that have competed "up there" in the last five years without the use of the e-collar.
Are we breeding dogs that need electric to compete at a high level or has the sport changed so that we need electric to compete at the top?
In case anyone wants my credentials, two dogs to Sch 3, one with electric for his out. Two to sch 1 without. My last Sch 3 scores were 94-100-97 without electric. My up and coming boy got his Sch 1 at the Mal championships with 91-93-94 without electric.
As a dog trainer, I see dogs with different genetic abilities to go from high drive to calm. Think Ivan's game and the ability to go from prey to a quick sit. Lately in French ring, I have seen mals go from full fight on the suit, to a lightening fast recall back to the handler. 
Out of my own two males, one switches drives instantly, the other takes a while. Which one do you think is better for the sport?
So again, are we using breeding dogs that need electric, and have lost the ability to switch? Or, is the sport demanding it?
Shade

Whatever Changer, its in the hands of man isn't it? all of it.
The breeding, the sport, and the tools.

As usual, I'm on the same page as Molly. The e-coller is for me a finishing device, used very judiciaciously (sp?) for some distance training, but only to reinforce and already well-learned and well-understood (by the dog) behavior. It is, fo me, NOT a teaching device. I teach the exercises the old fashioned way. Although I rarely have occasion to use the e-collar, there are indeed some things that it is absolutely perfect for, in the right hands. In the wrong hands (which, unfortunately is most often the case) the e-collar is the fastest way to screw up a dog, INDELIBLY, there is. I do not use it for tracking, never have and never will.
SS