Max von Stephanitz and SV??? - Page 3

I have male that looks alot like Pfeffer .He is out of mostly American lines.He has both testicles and all his teeth. I will try to get some one here with a camera to take his picture. He is an awfully good natured dog . At less then a week old he was crawling around with his tale wagging trying to sniff me out . He sure has a good spread on him while running, he can cover a lot of ground quick.His tale is still always wagging . I will have to see how far back I can track his pedigree. His grand father ofa d good at 8 years old..I would like to see his color a bit richer tan but ya can't have it all. He just loves kids. Every one who See's him wants him. He's mine I never thought he was special looking by today's standards.I will give it some more thought. 

I don't know if "today's standards" (either for working or show lines) have anything to do with what Max invision of what his breed should have become.

Its too bad that ego's have gotten into the mix. I wonder if anyone will try to understand what Max was reaching for and try to attain it for him.

As breeders we should all be doing this. We shouldn't be saying "I breed for working ability, and don't care for looks" or I breed for the gait and don't care for workability" We should be breeding for the ideals of Max....

We breeders shoud research and memorize EVERYTHING we can about the direction in which Max wanted to take HIS breed, and then do our best to breed to it.

Maybe one day we'll get there again.

Wazzup I'd like to see you photos of your Pfeffer dog. 
Buldersmom Thank you for your imput....

What about Artur Meyer the co founder of the SV, what were his thought on conformation? Did these 2 men want the breed to go in the same direction?

Will history repeat its self?

Phylax Society

The Phylax Society was the first German Shepherd Dog club, formed with the intention of creating a standardised German dog breed.

Establishment

Throughout Europe, unofficial groups had been operating to selectively breed dogs with profound qualities. While distinct breeds were being established they often differed dramatically, both in appearance and utility, across localities. As a result, in 1891 the Phylax Society (Phylax being Greek for "guardsman") was formed with the intention of creating a standardised German dog breed by hand-picking, from sheep dogs belonging to local German shepherds, those which displayed superior qualities than those of other dogs.^[1]

Disestablishment

The official existence of the Phylax Society was short lived. Early in the group's history there was constant bickering regarding the desired traits of what would become the German Shepherd Dog. Some of the members felt aesthetics were not important in a dog breed, instead desiring that the dog be useful as a working breed, rather than having a pleasing look. Other members preferred that the dog be bred more for beauty with less of a focus on having a working breed. This argument was never settled and after numerous attempts to breed the German Shepherd dog failed by producing dogs with little to no utility, many of the members left; resulting in the Phylax Society disbanding in 1894, only four years after its establishment.^[1][2][3][4]

Post-Phylax Society

Although the Phylax Society had disbanded, many former members continued in attempts to breed a dog with superior qualities. It was due to the original formation of the Phylax Society that Max von Stephanitz was inspired to form the Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (Society for the German Shepherd

 

There is a wonderful article about the origins of the GSD in "The German Shepherd Book" published by Hoflin back in the 80's. It's a coffee table book and expensive, but if you know of someone who has a copy, or can pick it up cheaply on e-bay, it is a marvelous read -while focusing on the development of the breed in the USA in its latter section, the first part is devoted to an in-depth examination of what Max was about, with accompanying photos of the early dogs. It doesn't shed any more light on why  or how he died - but I remember reading somewhere that the constant harassment from the Nazis, and their insistence that he turn over his beloved dogs to them finally took their toll.

Anjablue, thank you, I'll see about getting a copy........

Now this IS interesting, is the Kennel Club may be trying to go back to the dog that Max and Artur had invisioned?

Look at the mid 1930's champion dogs and see how much alike there are......I am completely surprised....How about you?

German Shepherd Dog (Alsatian) Breed Standard

INTERIM (Breed Standard under review until June 2009)

General Appearance
Slightly long in comparison to height; of powerful, well muscled build with weather-resistant coat. Relation between height, length, position and structure of fore and hindquarters (angulation) producing far-reaching, enduring gait. Clear definition of masculinity and femininity essential, and working ability never sacrificed for mere beauty.

Characteristics
Versatile working dog, balanced and free from exaggeration. Attentive, alert, resilient and tireless with keen scenting ability.

Temperament
Steady of nerve, loyal, self-assured, courageous and tractable. Never nervous, over-aggressive or shy.

Head and Skull
Proportionate in size to body, never coarse, too fine or long. Clean cut; fairly broad between ears. Forehead slightly domed; little or no trace of central furrow. Cheeks forming softly rounded curve, never protruding. Skull from ears to bridge of nose tapering gradually and evenly, blending without too pronounced stop into wedge-shaped powerful muzzle. Skull approximately 50 per cent of overall length of head. Width of skull corresponding approximately to length, in males slightly greater, in females slightly less. Muzzle strong, lips firm, clean and closing tightly. Top of muzzle straight, almost parallel to forehead. Short, blunt, weak, pointed, overlong muzzle undesirable.

Eyes
Medium-sized, almond-shaped, never protruding. Dark brown preferred, lighter shade permissible, provided expression good and general harmony of head not destroyed. Expression lively, intelligent and self-assured.

Ears
Medium-sized, firm in texture, broad at base, set high, carried erect, almost parallel, never pulled inwards or tipped, tapering to a point, open at front. Never hanging. Folding back during movement permissible.

Mouth
Jaws strongly developed. With a perfect, regular and complete scissor bite, i.e. upper teeth closely overlapping lower teeth and set square to the jaws. Teeth healthy and strong. Full dentition desirable.

Neck
Fairly long, strong, with well developed muscles, free from throatiness. Carried at 45 degrees angle to horizontal, raised when excited, lowered at fast trot.

Forequarters
Shoulder blade and upper arms are equal in length, well muscled and firmly attached to the body. Shoulder blades set obliquely (approximately 45 degrees) laid flat to body. Upper arm strong, well muscled, joining shoulder blade at approximately 90 degrees. Seen from all sides, the forearms are straight and, seen from the front, absolutely parallel. Bone oval rather than round. The elbows must turn neither in nor out while standing or moving. Pasterns firm, supple, with a slight forward slope. An over long, weak pastern, which would affect a dog's working ability is to be heavily penalised.  Length of foreleg slightly exceeds the depth of chest.

Body
Lengt

Body
Length measured from point of shoulder to point of buttock, slightly exceeding height at withers. Correct ratio 10 to 9 or 8 and a half. Undersized dogs, stunted growth, high-legged dogs, those too heavy or too light in build, over-loaded fronts, too short overall appearance, any feature detracting from reach or endurance of gait, undesirable. Chest deep (45-48 per cent) of height at shoulder, not too broad, brisket long, well developed. Ribs well formed and long; neither barrel-shaped nor too flat; allowing free movement of elbows when gaiting. Relatively short loin. Belly firm, only slightly drawn up. Back between withers and croup, straight, strongly developed, not too long. Overall length achieved by correct angle of well laid shoulders, correct length of croup and hindquarters.  The topline runs without any visible break from the set on of the neck, over the well defined withers, falling away slightly in a straight line to the gently sloping croup.  The back is firm, strong and well muscled. Loin broad, strong, well muscled. Weak, soft and roach backs undesirable and should be heavily penalised.  Croup slightly sloping and without any break in the topline, merges imperceptibly with the set on of the tail. Short, steep or flat croups highly undesirable.

Hindquarters
Overall strong, broad and well muscled, enabling effortless forward propulsion. Upper and lower thigh are approximately of equal length. Hind angulation sufficient if imaginary line dropped from point of buttocks cuts through lower thigh just in front of hock, continuing down slightly in front of hindfeet. Angulations corresponding approximately with front angulation, without over-angulation.  See from rear, the hind legs are straight and parallel to each other. The hocks are strong and firm.  The rear pasterns are vertical.  Any tendency towards over-angulation of hindquarters, weak hocks, cow hocks or sickle hooks, is to be heavily penalised as this reduces firmness and endurance in movement.

Feet
Rounded toes well closed and arched. Pads well cushioned and durable. Nails short, strong and dark in colour.

Tail
Bushy-haired, reaches at least to hock – ideal length reaching to middle of metatarsus. At rest tail hangs in slight sabre-like curve; when moving raised and curve increased, ideally never above level of back. Short, rolled, curled, generally carried badly or stumpy from birth, undesirable.

Gait/Movement
Sequence of step follows diagonal pattern, moving foreleg and opposite hindleg forward simultaneously; hindfoot thrust forward to midpoint of body and having equally long reach with forefeet without any noticeable change in backline.  Absolute soundness of movement essential.

Coat
Outer coat consisting of straight, hard, close-lying hair as dense as possible; thick undercoat. Hair on head, ears, front of legs, paws and toes short; on back, longer and thicker; in some males forming slight ruff. Hair longer on back of legs as far down as pasterns and stifles and forming fairly thick trousers on hindquarters. No hard and fast rule for length of hair; mole-type coats undesirable.

Colour
Black or black saddle with tan, or gold to light grey markings. All black, all grey, with lighter or brown markings referred to as Sables. Nose black. Light markings on chest or very pale colour on inside of legs permissible but undesirable, as are whitish nails, red-tipped tails or wishy-washy faded colours defined as lacking in pigmentation. Blues, livers, albinos, whites (i.e. almost pure white dogs with black noses) and near whites highly undesirable. Undercoat, except in all bla

I believe that white wasnt made a disqualification until after the Captain had no control over the SV...I believe the same is true for livers and blues.  I have the 1924 translated edition of his book...and while he doesnt care for certain colors, he also doesnt say disqualify them either.

Generally I have thought that had the Captain been around today the dogs would look more along the lines of the Belgian breeds or dutchies...maybe a little on the heavier side, maybe with a little more angulation.  Sables would probably be the 'winning' color, rather than b/ts, but I also think that there wouldnt be disqualified colors unless they were shown to cause health or working issues.

I keep purchasing books from the 20's - 50's about the GSD...though generally because I have been trying to find the disconnect with the whites....but I also enjoy the history portion and I havent seen much on history on when the Captain gave up the SV, the Nazi involvement, etc....I guess I would probably have to learn German and find some old german books in order to do that.

~Cate

Colour
Black or black saddle with tan, or gold to light grey markings. All black, all grey, with lighter or brown markings referred to as Sables. Nose black. Light markings on chest or very pale colour on inside of legs permissible but undesirable, as are whitish nails, red-tipped tails or wishy-washy faded colours defined as lacking in pigmentation. Blues, livers, albinos, whites (i.e. almost pure white dogs with black noses) and near whites highly undesirable. Undercoat, except in all black dogs, usually grey or fawn. Colour in itself is of secondary importance having no effect on character or fitness for work. Final colour of a young dog only ascertained when outer coat has developed.

Size
Ideal height (from withers and just touching elbows): dogs: 63 cms (25 ins); bitches: 58 cms (23 ins). 2.5 cms (1 in) either above or below ideal permissible.

Faults
Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree and its effect upon the health and welfare of the dog.

Note
Male animals should have two apparently normal testicles fully descended into the scrotum.

Last Updated - January 2009

BTW, in case you're not aware, this is the new breed standard for the United Kingdom, which was drafted after the scathing BBC documentary about purebred dogs. If you've been away from the Data Base for the last little while, do a search on BBC documentary or Alsatian, and you'll find a ton of threads about this.