Roached/Banana backs - Page 3

I tried to translate this article on my website in english

http://www.schlossbuldern.de/article-english.html

the dog on the Video is Dingo vom Haus Gero, Sieger VA1 in 1983.

Uwe

I have had mainly working lines over the years but to me many of the show lines are beautiful to look at and are very nice looking GSD's.  Unfortuntely as several people have mentioned this can be overdone and you end up with a roached or bowed looking back which to me looks painful. I am not arguing nor defending as to me it is best for all lines to stick to the standard .

so look at my article and tell me where you see the change of standart?

Here is another diskussion about this.

Uwe

Jeck, I did read your article and IMO you dog Harras is far, far different from the older dog you have used as a comparision. Not sure if you are opening this to a discussion of the differences or the similarities. I'm not going to offer up all of my observations of either dog other than to say the most glaring differences is the older dog has a much, much  longer secondary thigh that your dog, a longer hock, a more  upright pastern, a shorter and less angulated upper arm, less depth of chest, less spring of rib, and his legs are a lot longer than your dog's. The only similarity I do see is they  are both obviously purebred GSD's.  IMO they are very, very dissimilar in structure and type.

Hello Blitzen,

I made the article long before this discussion, chris (silbersee) ask me if she can use to start a discussion here.

I agree longer hook, but thats one of the main critic on the "modern" DSH, and its the opposit, in early days you can find longer hooks, so more problems not to gate straight from rear and also the upperarm is more straight. But now read the standard, Stephanitz had a picture a vision of a dog, he wasn't able to make the dog appear with a finger snip.

But here was the critic called roached back but it is correct to the standard, i could have tried to explain what happens to the back when I spread a backhand, but people don't belive when they don't see.

Harras also has much more hair than Erich, I agree too.

But next critic of working people to the showlines is weight and hight that have negativ influence to the workability of the dogs. But fact is, that the workinglines have now a lot of oversized dogs (up to 70cm) with very high weight above 40kg and very long hookes, so they proof by themself it ain't true.

Here can you look back to the hitory of the GSD you will find dogs with over 70 cm made to winner and with way more weight than today.

Harras is "only" 65cm and 35kg, fits perfect to the standart. All proportions you can measure and find complete fitting to the standard. A judge just said, his anatomie is VA quality, he has little faults, as every dog, but he has structures and charakter way above normal.

Uwe

Uwe,please do not try to justify your dog here he needs no justification,he is a stunning very correct example of the gsd.The die hard working line people will never learn there is more to a gsd than just how hard one can bite.Lets see where they are with thier dogs in another ten year,probably still wearing blinkers and spouting the same old drivel.I myself am still learning new things and will continue to do so,i have learned from you also UWE i thank you for that.  liz.

Liz, Uwe was not asked to justify Harras. We were discussing the evolution of the breed and how the individual dogs have or have not changed as a result. I see few similarities in Harras and the older dog Uwe used in his article. Why don't you offer up some of your observations on how the breed has evolved in the last 40, 50 years. What do YOU see when  you compare the 2 dogs?

Uwe, all breeds are changing I think. I show at AKC shows - don't hold that against me  , not GSD's, and many breeds look nothing like they did at the start. The main change I've seen here is more size and overall bulk and most breeds want a bigger side gait. That makes for a more impressive group dog. Most don't stop to think about the original intent of any breed. I hate to see bigger GSD's; for the most part they lack endurance and agility. If only intended to sit on the couch like my dog Blitz or to place well at the Sieger, it's not a big deal I guess. But if the intent is to preserve the true working type, then the big, bulky dog is not going to cut it tending 24/7.

As to coat, I often think the coats on some of the foundation dogs might not have been thick enough or weather resistant. I think Harras has the type of coat that could do well for a dog that lived outside most of the time in all seasons. At any rate, the standard does call for the correct weather resistant double coat with harsh guardhairs.

It's all about breeding to the standard and not changing the standard to fit what is being bred. Here the parent breed clubs can vote on standard changes and the AKC will honor their requests for revisions. I don't know about the SV, but I'm betting it's a lot harder to get any revisions to that breed standard.

Take care, nice discussion.

Thanks Blitzen for addressing this. I saw the same things you mentioned yesterday but didn't have the energy to bring it up after working my pups. You know just as well as I do, FM wont join the discussion past harping on "workingline" people. Funny Blitz, don't you have a showline? Seems you were thrown in he bucket with us worker bees.

Now which dogs look closer? Neither way Harras stands anywhere near resmebles the old Sieger. Not even sure why it would be used as a comparison.

I have nothing against working line people or thier dogs i have changed my opinion greatly having seen dogs that are conformationally correct.So please do not assume that i have no respect some of the working line dogs and people.i have been looking on this data base and ddr legends and some of the working line dogs are superb.This thread is about the so called roach back and i think UWE has explained this myth exceptionally well. But a certain few just will not let it go,I will not get into a personal slagging match with anyone,been there,done that,got the t shirt. I do not think UWE was trying to say his dog looked like the other picture,he was showing how an overline when posed by a handler can look different.Blitzen i apologise i did not know you were one of us show people! liz

Point is the top line is not the same with the hocks in line.