A PPD Question - Page 3

EisenFaust I really liked your answer to the question. I agree with you 100% that the dogs job should be to knocked the attacker to the ground any one that ever got in a real fight knows that the most venerable position for a human is on his back. Once the bad guy hits a concrete I am pretty sure he will be more concern with how to get out of the situation and run away rather than shooting any one. Plus if you walking or driving around with your GSD I am 100% sure most bad guys would stay the hell away from you. :)

John--Well said.

The main problem with these arguements is the different philosophies between sport and PPD or Police service. When I started in sport all I heard is how police dogs don't out, have no control, they don't know how to train, etc, etc. So I fell into that mindset. Once I started training with LE departments and became a cop, I was able to see both sides.

In my experience sport dog trainers(good ones) train and see more dogs, therefor have a better understanding of how strong the dog is. I have worked several police dog seminars and training days. I cring at some of the dogs I have seen. It is like sending a cop out on the street with a .22 For the most part sport people(good ones) are better trainers with the ability to bring a dog up from a puppy.(But police dog training is getting better.)  Sport trainers lack experience in police work in general and often don't understand area searches (completely different from tracking), police tactics, environmental complexities, etc.

90% of Police dogs come already trained by someone else. Officers just have to mold and maintain that training.

With that said, you have to understand that police officers are cops, not dog trainers and they want and need something completly different from sport dog people. They don't need or want a dog that will out from 30 yards away. A good strong dog is not going to out in a real fight anyway. I don't care how much training they have. Until you have been in a "pig pile" with 5 cops fighting a spun out Meth head so high he doesn't feel pain, with everyone screaming "stop resisting", police lights flashing, and sirens wailing, you just can't understand. No amount of training can compare to the real deal. The dog feels real flesh and bone and there is so much stimulus, they get so jacked up they ain't outing. LE officers don't need or want perfect focus and beautiful OB. The don't need that full calm grip. They don't need that "stable dog" that will let anyone open it's mouth and grab it's balls.

Eisenfaust-- the problem you face is that PPD training and trainers do not have a good reputation. They sell shit dogs and lead people to believe they are man-stoppers they can trust with their lives. I have seen so many PPD dogs that would piss themselves if I really put it to them it makes me sick. The owners have no idea what they have and believe their dog is the toughest thing on earth. 

Your explanation of your level 1,2,3 is good. I would like to believe being an officer gives you more insight on what a person needs or wants and you represent your dogs accurately. Most dog brokers don't. Not your fault; but that is the mindset you have to overcome from people in the sport dog world. I don't know you; don't know your dogs, have never talked to one of your clients, so can't judge you.

I lost a good friend over the same thing. Excellent trainer and experienced cop. He sold a department a dog from his breeding. The dog didn't have it. One day he took me aside and asked me to put it to the dog. The dog came off in front of the handler. He said, "What did you do to that dog?" Asked me to test the dog, then blamed me instead of telling the handler he needed another dog. The dog was certified and put on the street. That was it for me.

Even good people start seeing the money.

I must agree with (GARD)  about seeing so many L.E dogs out on the street that should not be there. Along with you mentioning that the PPD industry has a bad name due to all the crooks out selling sport dogs as PPD dogs. I see it all the time and it pisses me off. One reason that PPD industry is misunderstood in my opinion is because people that want a PPD dog are very uneducated in dogs and see a dog that bites and have the thought that it is a PPD and the sport people are taking full advantage of it..

As far as the L.E the training is starting to get better due to community policing taking a major role. Departments are needing dogs to be able to do demos one minute and on a felony stop the next moment. 

Just a little defense for Eisen Faust, I have seen many of his dogs and actually taken bites from them ( Holy *uck) I have never been hit and bite in this manner.  I have worked alot of police K9 and none of them have been like what I have seen from EF.  Over the weekend I work a county's K9 and was spitting nails by the end of the training session to think this piece of *hit was on the street.

I have been to many training places just to be disappointed, I have many time jumped on a plane to fly to E.F for a weekend training just because what I get out of a weekend is by far more than months at any other place.

Well it is nice that you all have good points but let us not call these dogs shit because it is not the dog fault taht he is put in  this situation.if you really want to call someone shit how about the cop who is walking around with this dog or the trainer who trained this dog or anyone who approved of this dog they are the real shit behind this poor dog the dog did not go and apply for this job always remember that.let us put the blame where it is go.have a nice one.

John and GARD. Excellent posts. My thoughts exactly.  I have seen PPD LEVEL1 dogs offered with no more training than I would consider house manners and the fact that they will bark at the door or on command (wh/ my old collie/golden retriever was excellent at as long as she had a GSD to back her up)

EF no intention in starting a pissing match. Just some genuine questions. I see points on both sides re the targeting issues but I feel you did not really answer my intial question - "My question is this since so much emphasis seems to be on this position - is not working the dog in this position easier for the dog - i.e. can give confidence to a dog that is less confident etc. Me I would want the dog to have a high level of fight with an upright helper since lets face it that's the way bad guys are going to come at you. "       I was not saying the fight had to stay upright - just that realistically that is where it starts AND realistically the postions shown with guy on ground and dog on top can I believe can make a weaker dog look /feel stronger.

Also I am concerned re one of your statements - "Now as far as the dog in the photo he will bite you standing up, sitting down, passive or  when you are being aggressive" I hope like heck that your clients are given "informed consent" about the liability they are purchasing and if their dog injures a passive person - they might as well just turn over their house, car, savings and first born right there and then. And no it won't matter if the injured was a criminal and trespassing or B&E or committing A&B. There have been plenty of cases where(stupidly imho)the bad guy breaks a leg etc on your property and sues for negligence and wins. The whole passive thing just adds a level of  "reckless indifference" which in some states if death results changes what might have been manslaughter to first degree murder.

Which raises yet another question for the PPD world since there are no standards about what constitutes training and/or a trained dog - how aware DO you make your clients of the liability issues around owning such a dog (and yes the liability will be very different from a dog that is trained in a sport with defined rules, standards and expectations) or do you just ignore that whole issue?

This thread is starting to have AGENDA written on it.

But to answer the supposed original question.....

It is actually more pressure in some instances with the helper on the ground. The dog has to climb on top of the decoy which leads to more body contact which can be more or less pressure depending on the dog. Additionally, you do not have as much movement in the body so less prey to carry the dog through. Depends on the dog and how it is worked.

All dogs should be trained to engage on a passive suspect. Police dog, sport dog, or PPD

VFK,

The reason why I mention the fact that my dog will bite a passive person is for the following reasons. As a police officer in a larger city and working in the shit hoods I have never been to an armed robbery where the bad guy came at the victim jumping up and down moving side to side yelling while holding a padded stick. The bad guys approach as cool and calm as can be and most passer by's would not even know what is happening. This is why with the proper training and commands you can teach the dog to bit the person you send them on. In a situation where the bad guy does not act aggressively how is your dog going to protect you if you dont show him this. Now the added liability comes when you have poor training and a dog that is not suited for this training. I will tell you this a trained GSD bites someone or a sch g

VFK,

The reason why I mention the fact that my dog will bite a passive person is for the following reasons. As a police officer in a larger city and working in the shit hoods I have never been to an armed robbery where the bad guy came at the victim jumping up and down moving side to side yelling while holding a padded stick. The bad guys approach as cool and calm as can be and most passer by's would not even know what is happening. This is why with the proper training and commands you can teach the dog to bit the person you send them on. In a situation where the bad guy does not act aggressively how is your dog going to protect you if you dont show him this. Now the added liability comes when you have poor training and a dog that is not suited for this training. I will tell you this a trained GSD bites someone or a sch GSD bites someone you are liable for the same, you will pay unless you can justify the bite.

VFK, Not to start anything, but it is when SCH people try to inform people about PSD, PPD and so on is when things get messed up. I am not saying that you are not good at sch but how much do you really understand about PPD, and PSD training and so on. I have been contacted by more people with dogs that are SCH titled that got scammed than you realize. See people hid behind the titles of SCH in order to sell a product that is miss-represented. 

This is a great discussion and I admit that I am biased on the side of PPD's over ANYTHING else. I had two long haired GSD's trained by a family that bred them, trained them in OB, agility, utility, tracking, and protection. We often worked situations where the "attackers" approached in a calm, but suspicious manner. We also did vehicle protection training. At first all of the PPD dogs ran behind the owners or rolled over on the floor and acted like they were disinterested. Over time this led to a learning sequence in which the dogs would make eye contact with the attackers, followed by barking at the attackers, then standing in front of the owner and barking, followed by barking and driving the attackers back. One of the reasons a dog may train by attacking  a person who is down on his back is to build confidence in the dog. As the dog progresses it becomes more confident and will go after the attacker in a variety of other scenarios and positions. The problem I had was that my dogs wanted to go after anyone who came in the room after several sessions. So we devised scenarios for them to be nice and approach people when they came in and acted frinedly. Sometimes we would do "quick outs" - that is I was to give the dogs the command to attack and then yel out after a second or two. And whenever the trainer crouched, clapped his hands, and said "Good boys", I let them approach and be petted. Both of my dogs were from the same litter and had their testicles intact. I felt they were more bonded and committed to each other than two unrelated dogs would be. And yes, there were a couple of occasins where they went after a passive person, but this was always a situation involving a male adult who was trying to "act" at ease with the dogs and they sensed his fear. So I was always vigilant when a male approached them and took measures to keep everyone safe.

My first GSD had no training of any kind and was more aggressive toward men than my other two put together. He always went for the neck or the crotch and I did NOT teach that to him. He also never alerted. He simply went after the person and tried to bite them. Two dog specialists evaluated  him and said he was a 9 on the dog hardness scale. 10 is for dogs who guard warehouses, car lots, etc... and can only be approached by their owners. I had him neutered because vets and other people told me it would calm him down. In fact he just gained weight and became even more volatile. I used a prong collar on him because nothing else would get his attention. He was very gentle in the home and very loving of my wife and me. But he was a strong willed animal that required constant supervision and training. The vet said he was fortunate to be living with us because he probably would have been put down if he were with someone else.

Gard - no agenda. Just some honest questions. I noticed no one addressed the liability issue question. Found a good discussion about some of this here http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=98501&page=1&fpart=2  See new member's post with the 7 steps. At least he does address liability and in #7 the disposability of the dog - which I'm sure many people really do not face/address. The one line that concerned me "what you are doing is training a dog to think on his own when he should bite " relates also to your comment about the lady with her threat and assessment dog.  This is in fact what I find a bit scary about the PPD that these are the scenarios being fed to people. A dog that makes his own decisions whether to bite or not amounts to a junk yard dog/ attack dog/ a guard dog - I am hard put to think of any scenario where that is acceptable to me and certainly does not constitute a trained protection dog imho. Which somewhat leads me to EF and the "passive" bite situation. I have to confess I was interpreting it in the light of the above situation where the dog is making his own "choice" to bite.  May I suggest a bit of different language. I think it would be more appropriate and certainly clearer if you said the dog was trained to bite on command rather than biting merely in response to a set  of stimuli.

I fully understand the reasons a police K9 works differently than a sport dog and the need for " This is why with the proper training and commands you can teach the dog to bit the person you send them on"  I have not once spoken about police dogs. Perhaps I am naive ( tho have done LE work and worked side by side w/ K9 officers and Dad and Uncle were cops so I think not that naive) but I truly do not see many situations where private individuals need that higher level of protection. As noted in the OP " To me reality is you want a dog to bark and warn and yes in some situations probably bite. But you have to know that if someone is really serious that they will have a gun or a knife and there is a good chance the dog is toast . The dog will merely give you time to get out of dodge or get your own gun..." Which also brings up the point about the disposability of the dog. It is an accepted fact in working with a police K9 that the ultimate purpose of the dog is to save the handler and by that I do not mean protect him. I mean the dog is a disposable tool. We do not like to label it as such but that is the reality. Harsh but it happens. As new member states in his thread I linked to above, I'm not sure that a lot of the people who get PPD really understand that which circles back to the question - what is the real need for such a dog.