Bart Bellon's Contact Method of training? - Page 3

Stop screaming , Held, if you don't like e-collars, fine don't use them.  If you have never used one yourself, then maybe you should first know what you are talking about before you condem something.  Otherwise you are talking out of  your ass and you sound pretty dumb.  Wrap your brain around this one,  buddy they are also used to build drive.

Louise,

You are so right about Jim Dobbs.

I spent several months doing tracking with Jim Dobbs in 1998 and he is a fabulous trainer.

The only thing we used the e-collar for was the head down for indicating the articles.

I was very sceptical but he put the collar on my arm first and it really was just a buzz-no pain at all. He used it in my instance as a means of communication not a correction.

Unforturnately, divorce interrupted my Schutzhund career, but Shadow did a perfect head down for the rest of his 13 years.

Michele

Strange how some of the most highly successful trainers (known for using motivational training techniques and operant conditioning) also employ the use of the e-collar in their training programs, have their students use them, and discuss their use at seminars: Gottfried Dildei, Joanne Plumb, Bernhard Flinks, Ivan Balabanov, etc.

No, you won't see the e-collar used in their training videos--which are available for purchase by the general public (and accessible by the PETA-mentality "humaniacs").

OTH, I've seen Jim Dobbs combine e-collar training with the use of food, toys, and the clicker.

Louise,

I trained with Ivan in 1998-1999. He used the e-collar with only a few of the dogs for specific situations. One super high-drive maniac Malinois would just rocket on the blind search tand go way past the blind and come screaming back in. The e-collar at the right moment slowed him down just enough to keep him on the field.

I haven't been to one of Ivan's seminars, but, I have heard that he does use the collar more often at the seminars to solve problems. There is a very limited amount of time at a seminar. Of course, It has been 10 years since I trained with him in San Francisco.

As to making dogs LOOK like they are happy. HUH???? I don't think dogs fake being happy. The dogs that I saw Ivan training, were really, really happy and not faking it. That is why Ivan has done so well for so long. His dogs did what they did very well indeed and quite happily too.

Michele

i am aware of the big trainer using it acgtually in some circles Joan Plum is consider queen of the electricity i also know that Bernard and Dildi my gurus use it these guys are masters and like i said a very small % not that it still makes it right .i mean ask urself if there was no electricity what would these trainers use then.anyways i am having way too much fun with this so i got to move on but befor i do i like to say to SUE WHO IS GETTING EMOTIONAL NOW I AM JUST HAVING A DISCUSSION ABOUT SOMETHING AND U R GETTING VERY UPSET I CAN ONLY IMAGINE WHAT U B LIKE IN TRAINING IF YOUR DOG MAKES A MISTAKE BECAUSE U DID NOT TEACH HIM RIGHT U B ALL THOSE PEOPLE WHO YANK AROUND THEIR DOGS WITH PINCH COLLOR ON AND GETTING RED IN THE FACE WITH ANGER AND LOSING YOUR COOL U CAN NOT BE A GOOD TRAINER LIKE THAT.THIS IS ALSO ONE OF THE REASON WHY MOST TRAINERS FAIL. ALSO TO PACK MAN I THOUGHT DOG WAS MAN'S BEST FRIEND WHEN DID IT START BEING A SLAVE.THIS TYPE OF ATTITUDE CREATS PUPPY MILL OWNERS IT IS YOUR ATTITUDE TOWARDS THINGS THAT DICTATES YOUR ACTIONS. IT IS HUMAN NATURE WHEN WE DO NOT RESPECT SOMETHING WE USUALLY DON'T TREAT IT RIGHT.ATTITUDE LIKE THIS IS FRIGHTENING ,THIS IS THE SAME ATTITUDE THE PEOPLE WHO ABUSE ANOMALS HAVE AND THAT IS HOW THEY JUSTIFY THEIR ABUSE OH IT IS JUST A DOG AT THE END OF THE DAY SO WE CAN DO WHATEVER WE WANT.WOW I WOULD NOT WANT TO BE YOUR DOG THAT IS FOR SURE.HOPEFULLY U WILL SEE THINGS DIFFERENTLY SOME DAY OR AT LEAST ONE CAN HOPE ANYWAYS HAVE A NICE ONE.AND PEOPLE LIGHTEN UP THIS IS A DISCUSSION BOARD DO NOT NEED TO GET TOO UP SET REMEMBER IT IS NOT THE END OF THE WORLD IT IS JUST DOG TRAINING HAVE FUN.

 Held, 

I thought the "slave" comparison was a bit off myself. It seems to me there is a difference between a "slave" and a "dog". While they might both do the bidding of their master through compulsion, the slave is denied free will, and yet the animal gives us its, most willingly.

There you go, jumping to conclusions and making up stories about people and dogs you don't know.  You are the one screaming in caps and asking nonsensical questions about peoples children.  

By the way, why no comment on the videos you asked for thatpeople were so kind to provide you with?  What, got nothing to say about them?  Regale us all with your expert opinion on the faults of those trainers, also please let us know how they are "failing" and what your proof is. 

You say you are aware of "THE big trainer using it?  THE big trainer?  So you think there is only one big trainer who uses it?  Oh brother, that's a good one, thanks for the laugh!

Have a Nice Day

Aqua, it is in the "Dogs" tab.  I had to look through most of the tabs before I found it, I assumed "dogs" would be either dogs owned or for sale.

Held, please remember that no one method is correct for every dog, and that all training methods can be abused to the point of physical damage if one is so inclined.  I have seen many dogs with neck injuries from a plain training collar.  Also with regard to electric collars the new ones are far superior and gentler than the previous generation.  I compare the new dogtras with the old innotek that I had and the difference is like night and day.  I could not feel the electric on the dogtra until level seven and then it was a slight tingle.  I've been zapped worse from static on the shopping cart at Wal-mart (apparently the aversive wasn't strong enough as I still get a cart when I shop :)  The innotek was quite a bit stronger on level one.  (Also dogtra now has 125-127 levels and the old innotek had 7)  You can have the potential for a far gentler correction with the E collar as compared to the force going through a 5-10M long line.

As to electric and humans, when teenage gang member thugs who are out of control and often have weapons on their person (or adult criminals for that matter) don't comply they may get zapped with the taser.  It does a lot less damage than getting bit by the dog or even getting physical with them.  They also comply much quicker and learn something from the experience.    The taser is WAY more aversive than any e-collar has thought of being.

its a good thing i dont have kids, because i would probably use "ELECTRICTY" (is it just me or does anyone else hear arold schwarznagers voice when they read that ) on them.  kind of like shock therapy.  

as for the rest of the conversation,  potatoe, patatoe.  those that use it will continue,  those that dont will continue not to.  ive been told that clicker training works also, but i dont  use it.  seems that all those clicks would become annoying to the dog and cause them to go into avoidence behavior.  using food to train is just as bad.  if you have a slow learning and it takes a ton of food, then you run the risk of causing your dog to become overweight. 

give me a training method and i can come up with a way to make it wrong.

john