Using a ball to out for sleeve - Page 3

Ok for the sake of discussion lets play a "what if" game.

So "what if" two people went over to Holland to buy green dogs. We find two 6 month old littermate brothers who are so similar we don't really care who gets which dog. Let's say these dogs would easily make a PH1 if they remained in Holland. Now of course this is purley hypothetical.

OK so they take their brothers home. They have very good basic bitework foundation. For all intents and purposes these dogs are completely identical in temperment. One trainer start immediately playing the two ball game to introduce the concept of the out. Then he moves to two tug tubes. Then go to the tug tube or ball off the decoy at say around 10-11 months. Continue with the ring sport style "game" so they have a dog working in prey and outing cleanly at say 14 months. At this point, they start table work and introducing the fight. Since this dog now completely understands what out means, the trainer begins using the e-collar and out-redirects to other decoys to keep him clean and re-inforce the out. They continue this while on occasion going back to the out recall for a tug tube. The dog gets certified at 20 months.

Now you teach the dog the out whatever way you do it. E-collar, prong collar, hitting it the head with a 2x4(not saying you do this) but whatever way you teach it.

Now for the sake of the argument, these dogs are equally strong in temperment and hard kick ass dogs. PH1 dogs if they had remained in Holland.

Is the first dog going to cave under the stress of a real bite situation soley because he was trained this way and the second dog will not?

>  I train and work PSDs. I agree with Steve, when training a class I do not have the hours to train the 2 toy, ball method. The time it would take to detrain him off of the toy and back on to the bad guy  or redirect him to another lying in wait is wasted training time I could be using to improve another task, so I use live quarries only as I want the K-9 to know they are his priority at all times!

>  I know this method works as I have seen it taught a few times in the past. If I had a K-9 with the time to train and detrain him, I would give it a try if more traditional methods failed at the time. Unfortunatly I never seem to get the time.

I totally agree with GARD and zdog and deacon as well.  With a puppy or young dog, you want to do "foundation training" or "imprinting."  I start my puppies with 2 toys and teach the out and a super fast recall at the same time.  My pups understand "out" means drop whatever is in your mouth and you will be rewarded.  Later, I transition this to a decoy and sleeve.  My puppies and young dogs have a good amount of bitework and must have excellent solid bitework before I introduce the out.  When the time comes to out the dog from a sleeve, there is no conflict because the dog understands the out command.  I also teach the call out from the blind or calling the dog to a heel from  a hold and bark with a toy, months before I do it with a decoy.  This works great with my Police K9, I can do a "call off"  and recall him back to me very easily because he understands this and has a strong foundation in it.  ( I raised my police K9 from a pup) I doubt I will ever "out" him off a bad guy, I will probably lift him off and not even use the "out" command.  All I need to do is get control of him when the bad guy is cuffed or stops resisting.

I agree with Deacon fo a Police K9, there are too many things to train in  a 3 or 4 month school to do everything motivationally.  For the Police K9's the out training is a 1 or 2 day training process.  We do use a tug as a reward for a recall on termination of pursuit.  The handler rewards the dog for a fast recall with a tug, but the decoy also appraoches and may give the dog a bite as well.  It depends on the dog and level of training.  Some dogs don't want the tug, they want the decoy.  So the decoy approaches and on a signal from the handler or decoy the "packen" command is given. 

There are many ways to drive from NY to California, you just need to see what route is best for you.  Some routes are faster, some more scenic and enjoyable. 

Jim

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Steve, from what I saw that puppy in video 10 was not fighting with anyone.  I really doubt he bit you "for real."   My advice when working dogs is: be sure to keep your hands out of their mouths.   That puppy had nice prey drive and certainly should have been able to do bite work.  Something must have gone seriously wrong if that puppy wasn't strong enough for bite work, and the handler replaced him.  If you find another weak puppy like that one I'll gladly take him and train him.    I really didn't notice anything done on the table that couldn't be done by back tying a dog to a post on the ground. 

I work serious working dogs, Police K9's and sport dogs.  The last thing I want for my Police K9 is for the decoy to come up and pet him after bite work, or during bitework.  For us the  decoy is a real "bad guy"  I don't want the bad guy getting close enough to my dog to pet him, unless my dog is bititng the bad guy.   My K9 is social with me and a couple of select handlers, no one else.  I want to have another handler be able to take him in case I'm hurt.  But that handler is not able to give him any leash corrections because the dog will nail him.  I'm the only one that can correct my dog, he won't tolerate it from anyone else. 

What I saw in most of the videos the bitework is ok for SchH or sport dogs, I work Police K9's much harder than that and much more seriously.  Again, what I saw can be done with out a table.  I don't like sleeve work for Police K9's, I prefer muzzle work or suit work.  I realize those videos were made 12 or 13 years ago.

I understand the concept of table training for many obedience exercises, I guess the videos didn't clarify the advantage of the table for bitework as opposed to simply back tying the dog.  I do understand and appreciate your points: b to e and they are very interesting.  I think it's great for sport dogs.  Certainly, no offense or negative post intended.  Just offering my opinion FWIW on training.


Jim

CATS WORK BETTER

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