A bloat question - Page 3

  "Dogs in the wild ate raw, and they have a lot less problems than our dogs do today. They didn't have to have shots, ect. and they lived long than our dogs do now. Dogs were given what they were meant to eat-raw. There's always exceptions to the rule, and every dog is different."

Now, to be perfectly fair, where is the evidence to back this up? Has there honestly been a study on how many dogs lived longer in the wild then our dogs do now, or that they had less problems? Was there a study on dogs in the wild and the incidences of bloat? I don't think the claim can be made, because we haven't seen ALL the dogs in the wild from years past and been able to make the comparison of how many lived well and long, verses how many that didn't. 

I personally don't care one way or the other. I've fed both kibble, then raw for 2 years, then back to kibble (though I get the best kibble I can, and my smaller dogs eat like Dr. Harvey's which is somewhat raw stuff.....) I think anybody with a lick of sense and half a brain can research it and use the diet well, but then, so can the kibble people. It's about common sense and doing what you want to with your dog. But let the facts be the facts. There are so many claims on both sides it's becoming religious these days. 

On bloat, I haven't had a dog bloat yet, *knock on wood* and I hope to never have one. My current shepherds are on nature's variety raw instinct kibble. 

Nope... you started over 20 years ago and definitely did not jump on the bandwagon!  Thank you for sharing your experiences as that is all anyone can go on since there is no real facts out yet.  Soon (crossing-fingers) we should have much more information available about the genetics of bloat, HD, etc. and then we can really start comparing the differences in lifestyle and diet... I for one am anxiously awaiting this!

There are far more experiences than mine and mine are not all that anyone can go on.  It's called "research", which I believe the OP was doing here before this thread was taking so far off track.

And you are correct...there are "no real facts out yet" as regards bloat - the genetics - what genetics do/do not contribute to the condition and specifically how;  what bloodlines will produce it and which will not; how diet(s) and/or environment relate, contribute to or decrease incidents of bloat, etc.

Now can we get back to information/experiences with bloat and diets that others might be able to share?

I have had hundreds of GSDs over the years (mainly my own and those of rescues) and have only experienced one incident of bloat in a young male from working lines who was being fed raw by the people who wanted to place him through me. To say that only kibbles are fermentable and that is what causes gastric torsion is incorrect. Further, there are some outlandish statements made here, particularly this: 

"Dogs in the wild ate raw, and they have a lot less problems than our dogs do today. They didn't have to have shots, ect. and they lived long than our dogs do now. Dogs were given what they were meant to eat-raw. There's always exceptions to the rule, and every dog is different."

Such statements, while perhaps representative of someones' feelings, are NOT based in either fact or reality. There are NO statistical studies of any kind to back up such statements. Frankly, I could care less what people feed. But it does no one any good to make statements that only muddy the waters. And I have no problem with the author as she intimates with someone who also disagrees with her.  But I do object repeatedly on this board when people make outlandish and broad statements not backed by fact.

Bloat as well as other conditions seen in large breed dogs and GSDs is likely genetically and developmentally based. As well, environmental factors may play a role. For example, I have a young female here who literally gulps her food and ingests huge quantities of air as she does so (as evidenced by constant burping if we take her food away for short periods to try to make her not eat so fast). She may never bloat. But if she did, based on the air intake she gets, I would not be surprised. 

Bottom line: I have seen or known of dogs who are from all bloodlines and fed all types of diets who have bloated. The few studies there are make NO association with kibble vs raw. But if vets said feed this or that, you can be sure most people on this board would immediately find fault with them assuming they were just trying to make money, as we hear repeatedly about vaccinations paying for vets sending their kids to college.

To hell with any science....just believe what you want.

Nope... you started over 20 years ago and definitely did not jump on the bandwagon!  Thank you for sharing your experiences as that is all anyone can go on since there is no real facts out yet.  Soon (crossing-fingers) we should have much more information available about the genetics of bloat, HD, etc. and then we can really start comparing the differences in lifestyle and diet... I for one am anxiously awaiting this!

There are far more experiences than mine and mine are not all that anyone can go on.  It's called "research", which I believe the OP was doing here before this thread was taking so far off track.

Okay Fiona, please just relax, you are on the defensive and probably not thinking clearly.  "Thank you for sharing your experiences as that is all anyone can go on since there is no real facts out yet. "  I meant people only have "experiences" to go on... not just your experiences.  Most of us on this board do not re-read our postings a bunch of times before posting, and things may be misinterpreted.  I understand how what I said could be... but I think if you weren't so touchy right now you would have known what I meant.  Maybe you are also misinterpreting others and that is why I suggest relaxing a bit.

i BELIEVE THAT A LOT OF THE STRUCTURAL BUILD OF A MALE OR FEMALE AND ITS DISPOSITION AS TO HOW THAT DOG   EATS OR GULPS ITS FOOD, WHETHER IT BE RAW OR COM.KIBBLE OR CORNBREAD AND BEANS....WHEN KNOWN DOGS THAT BLOAT ARE QUESTIONED OF THEIR OWNERS...THE MAIN THING SAID,,,IS HE OR SHE GULPS AND EATS ALL OF THE FOOD IN A VERY QUICK MANNER....AND THEN GULPS A HALF OF BUCKET OF WATER.....

i PERSONALLY WATCHED ONE OF MY YOUNG MALES,,WHOM I WORKED AT MIDNIGHT IN TEXAS WITH TEMPS STILL AT 99 * AND IN COMPETITION THAT NIGHT WITH A GAL CO K-9 , IN RETRIEVE AND PLAYING IN A FIELD FOR ALMOST AN HOUR   ,,,,,BOTH CAME BACK TO MY HOME,,,NOT IN COUNTRY,,,CITY.....AND CEASAR   GULPED DOWN A  1/2 OF BUCKET OF WATER,,,,AND I WAS SO BUSY PUTTING EVERY THING AWAY AND VERY SLEEPY ,,,,DID NOT THINK TO TAKE THE WATER AWAY AFTER HE DRANK A SMALL PORTION......ABOUT AN HOUR LATER HE STARTD THE UPCHUCKING FOAM AND WALKING AND PACING AND THROWING UP FOAM AND THEN THE ROLLING ON THE GROUND AND WALKING AROUND IN PAIN....BY THE TIME I GOT HIM TO THE ER   , HIS SPLEEN HAD BEEN RIPPED FROM THE WALL AND THE TORTION WAS TOO SEVERE ,TO OPERATE...SO WE PUT HIM DOWN........

ONLY HAD ONE OTHER IN MY LIFE AND HE WAS 14 AND DIDNT DRING ALL DAY , UNTIL HE ATE HIS KIBBLE AND DRANK LOTS  WATER AND SAME CYNERIO........SAME OCCURANCE.....BOTH BIG BONED AND DEEP CHESTED MALES...

Also I believe dogs in the wild do NOT live long healthy lives.  If I'm not mistaken, wolves/coyote/fox average lifespan - if they are not killed first - is 8 years?  So much for their raw diet.

molly (who is not pissed, not bothered and not caring, just making sure facts are known and the answer to the posted question is not one-sided)

molly

I have always been an advocate for feeding what works for your dog and you. Doesn't matter if it is kibble or raw. My concerns with raw, are based in the FACT that the majority of people who pursue raw feeding, haven't a clue what they are doing. So much goes into doing it correctly. I have several dogs, and I feed raw, and have for several years. Since I was a young child our family dogs were fed unbelieveable crap, and not one of them bloated.  We have had dobermans, GSDs, and even a wolfdog, and none of them bloated on processed food.

In early 2007, I had a raw feed GSD "bloat". Bloat is in "" because technically what happened was not your typical bloat. All of my dogs are raw fed, and I know what I am doing. However, I had never had an issue with any of my dogs gulping or swallowing things whole without chewing. Circumstances? Female in the house in heat, male locked away...turns out (and I didn't know this at the time) he engages in coprophagia on occasion when in his crate. I came home from work at lunch, like I do every day to let dogs out, and I usually gave dogs a treat. I gave him a small chicken leg, not a leg quarter, just the chicken leg, and it was small. None of the dogs had ever had an issue with these size legs before. Well, my handsome boy swallowed the chicken leg, and didn't chew. I didn't see him not chew it, as I was handing out chicken to the other dogs. Luckily, I decided to sit down and check my email, which I do not normally do at lunch time. I heard the bellowing of a cow, a noise none of my dogs make. I ran to discover my boy bloating. I knew what was happening and acted quickly. The vet wasn't able to tube him, because there was a chicken leg stuck at the end of the line just before the stomach.They couldn't push it through. His stomach gases were very strong, because I hadn't gotten home in time to let him out, and he had engaged in coprophagia, keeping his crate clean.

A $3,000.00 lesson! When they say "no weight bearing bones" that also means chicken legs. Those are now pounded, if I give them at all. My boy survived, and we haven't had any issues at all since. I do give anti gas gels to him daily on the chance that I might not get home in time again, when he is locked away when there is a female in heat around.

My situation above, is not the first time I have heard of this happening. I know, personally, a few people who have fed raw, correctly, and still had incidents of bloat.  I know people who feed the cheapest bags of  kibble, and have for years, and their dogs have never bloated.

Is it genetic? could be, maybe not. I don't think we are going to find an answer here because we all have different stock, different feeding methods, different food types, and other variables too different to mention. Of course you can also factor in that it probably happens more than we know in our breed. We just don't hear about it because of the fear of genetic predisposition, and fear that no one will want the puppies we breed.

When the "bloat" occurred with my guy, I did a LOT of research, not just on the lines, but I called every vet I could think of asking them the same question. "To the best of your recollection, with the number of bloat, and bloat with torsion cases that you have seen, were the dogs primarily fed kibble, canned or raw diet?" I asked this of over 20 vets in NH. The answer was surprising, it was usually a mix, but the cases where they couldn't save the dog, the dogs had canned food. Does that mean anything? maybe not. You have to take so many variables into consideration. How long before the owner realized what was happening, how far a distance they had to go to get to vet... and so on.

Bottom line? anything can happen no matter how well prepared we think we are, and no matter what we feed our dogs.

Dees wolf, I think the Gas X caps are a great idea and I know vets who recommend them to their clients with dogs that have bloated or  may have a tendency to bloat.

and dogs do burp....every evening when Im handing out food to all,  Bear has his first,,,hes in the first run....and he gobbles his down.....fast...I feed him twice a day......about 3 minutes after he finishes his meal,,,sometimes with raw in kibble.....he  burrrrrrrrrrrrrrrpppppppppppppppppssssssssssssssssss.

You can hear him clear down the hill....Is he a candidate for bloat......probably.....hope I dont find out    ..Bear is on the database        big bone and huge frame......Korbelbach and Monteforthalle boy........ Bear Jerome......

Im wondering , should I give him   Gas X gels    he does burp every day......somone said one time,,,dogs dont burp.....several of mine do...ive heard the others   burp...but he burps every day...loud and clear...he is an intense dog.....very steady nerves,,but very dominant and pronounced work grips and intense drives.....so maybe I need to include a gAS x GEL IN HIS FOOD WITH HIS  X VIRGIN OLIVE OIL AND FISH CAP......??????

YR, it couldn't hurt.