serious "aggression"help needed - Page 3

I think kitkat got some good advice to sort thru, I'm glad someone suggested that this is a bad situation for the yorkie and that she may have to make some changes in her household.  I could invision her not being able to find said yorkie and the gsd in the corner sleeping off a full stomach.      

I started to reply to the original poster yesterday and got too busy to finish and trashed it. What I was going to say was akin to what Shasta has written. It is the posters inexperience and expectations and that WILL get him/her a dead small dog, sooner or later, PERIOD.

I hear about such situations almost weekly when someone with a similar story calls wanting to dump their GSD who just killed the little dog in the household. It is foolish to assume that someone without a lot of experience will be successful in defusing this situation and some of the advice given is downright dangerous. Correcting the GSD in the wrong manner can and often will create even more conflict with the two dogs. There are things that might be done to help if someone experienced were to be able to help you. But I think you are playing with fire and I do hope that you will carefully read what Shasta has written and heed the advice.

Too many people, including many who post on this board, anthropomorphize the dog. It is the WORST mistake one can make. As an aside, if you intend to do Schutzhund, you will want also to find a club NOW (as you have already missed some good opportunities with a young dog mind) with good and experienced people who may be also able to teach you how to deal with the GSD.

In the meantime, I strongly suggest you reconsider keeping these dogs separated. And leaving food 24/7 for them to consume sets up bad habits, potential conflicts and is probably not a great idea if you really do intend to do Schutzhund. The GSD should be kept lean. I see lots of free fed dogs and every single one of them is grossly obese. Eventually, most dogs do overeat if given access to food all the time. As well, you compromise the ability to safely train with your dog when it has a gut full of food but you don't know when it last ate.

Good luck.

Actually, kitkat3478 contacted me by PM before she started this thread. I felt bad that I was not able to offer more creative, problem-solving suggestions.

This my reply to her PM:

"Your dog is showing territorial aggression and possessive dominance. The best way that I can handle it is not to let certain situations occur. Yes, your dog does seem to think that he owns you. My 2 males (half-brothers) are not ordinarily dog- aggressive but hate one another.

I no longer let my older bitch sleep (prefers to hog the bed) with me in the bedroom with me and one of the boys because they are possessive of me and scold her without mercy. Because I don't want her to get hurt, I don't create situations where the boys can exercise dominance.

I know that this is not the answer you wanted. I'm sure that there may be solutions that are more complicated than I wish to pursue."

BTW, shortly after my sister moved in with me several years back, she opened the door and walked into my bedroom--leaving the door open and without noticing that her two elderly Dachshunds were following close behind her. I was lying on my bed--one of my males and my old, spayed female were in the room with me.

You can guess the rest of the story: the old lady flew off the bed and killed the smallest (another female) of my sister's dogs. Even today, my sister (who is fairly unsophisticated about dog behavior/psychology) blames me for failing to intervene effectively. My male is tractable and totally ignored the altercation. Fortunately, my sister has not lived with me for the past year.

When she visits and brings her Dachshund into the house, I put my GSD's away. However, I have no problem leaving the more mellow of my males outside with my sister's dog with no supervision.

Even after the earlier above incident, when I was not at home, my sister would take one of my boys into her room, have him up on her bed with her old male Dachshund while being engrossed watching TV. She simply could not understand it when one of my GSD males suddenly became possessive of her and scolded her dog. Fortunately, no damage was done--as my boys are well trained and obedient under all but the most trying circumstances.

Thank you, shasta and hodie, for your additional remarks which confirm that my "solution" is more cautious than"lazy". So, yes, I have three GSD's and must play "musical dogs" with them. During the day, one of the boys shares the front patio area with my bitch. They enjoy the fresh air and play out there with no problems. This arrangement has worked out fine. I love my dogs and enjoy them individually--re-homing is not an option for me.

 <Because the truth is, ALL dogs have the capacity to behave aggressively in certain circumstances. Labeling a dog aggressive or "bad attitude" does nothing to fix the problem, and forms a filter through which clients view their dogs.>

This is an excellent post Shasta.  One of the biggest challenges a trainer has if to match training technique to the temperament of the dog they are working with.  Trainers & owners make a HUGE mistake when they approach training with a one size fits all approach.  With the label aggressive, the relationship with the dog can only deteriorate. 

I caution against using a shock collar, in the dog's eyes, it would be easy to associate the pain of the shock with the poor little yorkie thereby teaching the GSD the yorkie *causes* him pain.  The rolled newspaper has the same opportunity to teach hatred.

It's not impossible to have all the dogs living in harmony as you wish.  I believe an extremely good behavoirist *might* be able to help...but I wonder WHY push the situation.  I can't imagine it that difficult to separate these precious beasts to ensure their safety.  Take the easy road here.  It's just not worth having a dead dog and a dog whose behavior you fear.  My guess is after the little dog is killed you won't want the GSD any longer?  If you have no desire or ability to have the dogs separated to create a harmonious and safe environment, rehome someone.  In the meantime make use of your crates.

Sue-Ann

Happy New Year!

     This is how my dogs are usually with each other. I did not mean to make Duke seem like a total unruly boy. I have seen him get aggressive with my little dogs, usually when they come by me. To me, that is a serious issue. I came here to ask for advice "BEFORE" it goes any further.                

     I am not a fool, I know the harm that can occur even in "play". When I go out, my dogs are crated(I also happen to like finding my house in the same condition when I come home, as when I left). The little black Squiggy, is probably as big an instigator in this as anyone, however, of all the little dogs, Squiggy and Duke get along best. Now Duke and Sophie are non-stop play,wrestle etc., I am hoping to stop this before it goes tooo far.   All advice is appreciated.

NO NO NO NO NO NO shock collar! If your dog does not understand what the zap is, and/or your timing is a touch off and he gets the zap when he close to your little dog, it could very well make him MORE aggressive toward the dog in that moment, by assuming it came from the dog and not you. One of the cardinal rules of training a shock collar is to never shock a dog away from a person/animal in an off leash situation such as your home. There is a right way and a wrong way to use an e-collar and you should NOT attempt using one without the assistance of a dog trainer. You can use one for dog aggression but it's really only suitable for very extreme cases when nothing else has worked.

The bottom line here is a resepct issue between you and your dog, not your 2 dogs. Absolutely 110% respectful obedience fixes any and all behavioral problems. I've worked with more dog aggressive dogs than most people will ever meet in their life. If your word is God to that dog, and you tell him sit, down, come, ANYTHING and he will immediately cease the behavior in order to follow your command. When he moves toward your yorkie, if he does not freeze in his tracks and come back when you say "come" this is an obedience problem, and he needs more respect for you as head of the household. You need to find a good trainer who has achieved success with this kind of work before and enroll in some one on one sessions. Best of luck.

Thats a cute scene kitkat, they look all warm and fuzzy.  But I think your still asking for trouble.  They are your dogs and you know them best, I would suggest perhaps you dont understand the nature of the beast and that you may very well have an incident one day.

good luck anyway.

 Kitkat, if you read my post, I HAVE had the call from clients who had a big dog kill a little dog after years of "getting along just fine". Picture is cute. I have pictures of my boys together too. But you have to realize that just because they get along just fine sometimes, does not mean they can get along always, and when there's as much a size difference as this, if they don't get along just fine, it takes ONE mishap and you have a dead or maimed dog. I personally am not willing to do that to my little ones. You can do whatever you want, but dont' come crawling back here after something happens, cause I know I at least will NOT be sympathetic to your case because it will have been YOU that did it to your dogs. (not the bigger dog doing it to the littler dog). 

While I agree that obedience and respect cures most problems, I think that most pet owners don't have the time, energy, vigilance etc to maintain this well. A dog trainer, maybe. Joe Q Pub pet owner does not even if they swear up and down that they do. They're just not as adept at reading dogs (though I swear I have a constant stream of people telling me what they think their dog is thinking at the time, and when I point out body language they didn't even know was happening they're amazed) and the dogs will eventually suffer. As a for instance of when I see this, I go into a home and sit down to take a history on a dog that has bitten a visitor. Owner says the dog will be fine one instant, and then jump up and try to bite the next instant. All the while I'm watching the dog in the corner of my eye who is yawning and licking lips excessively (calming signals), and whose body is perpetually tense. Because the dog is laying down, the owner assumes the dog is fine. Um, yeah right! Time bomb waiting to go off. But these owners INSIST that the dog is fine. So I tend not to assume that anyone can read a dog until they've proven otherwise...much less someone on the internet I've never seen handle a dog before. That translates to, I wont' sit here and say "it's obedience you need" because I can't assume that the person hearing the advice is able to do the kind of obedience you're describing. Not everybody can. And someone reading the thread may think that's the solution and have no idea what style to use or how to work with the problem itself, end up getting bit.

Also, every time this topic has come up, there have been those that diagnosed the reason the dog is aggressive, without seeing the dog! How on earth anyone can assume what a dog is thinking without knowing or seeing the dog beats me. I refuse to do it over the internet, could come back to bite me. Labeling the dog as "Dominant" is the same as labeling him as aggressive. It's still a label and does nothing to fix the problem. The dog MAY be acting dominant in this situation, he MAY be acting territorial, he MAY be correcting the smaller dog for approaching "his resource", or he may have had a negative association with the little dog. Who the heck knows without all the details? Again, it serves no purpose other then to put a filter on the owners eyes through which she sees the dog. That's the point. If I for instance see my dog as a dog that is always trying to one up me, dominate me and take over that revered "alpha (shmalpha)" role, then I'm more likely to be confrontational in my training technique...using punishment etc (as was stated, it doesnt' do anything other then squelch the behavior). The label thing just doesn't bode well for the dog. 

Also, while a good behaviorist/trainer MAY be able to help, it's a matter of finding the right one, and certainly not taking advice from a message board where people can't see you or your dog and know what is going on. Your better off at getting someone out there to assess. But anyone who tells you that your dogs can live in the field of daisies and play all day long and be just fine w

     The reason I posted this issue here is due to the fact that many people here do schutzhund. I did not expect to get any one "miracle solution" to this problem. I want to know how others deal with this kind of issue, and KNOW I can find a way to handle this successfully.   The reason I got Duke is "I want to do schutzhund", I got a dog with high drive. To me, a title or trophy means nothing. I have "several "German Shepherds. I breed them, and sell them. Where I live, not one person has ever expressed a desire to do anything with their dog but have Great Quality pets!!!Dogs they can send out in the yard and into the bedroom with their kids. I have done that.Schutzhund is a foreign lingo to most.  Just because no one around here wants show dogs, or dogs that the only job they do is herd the cows in, or be loyal family protectors (which in my opinion is the most important)     I give a full health, hip and temperment guarantee with my dogs. I go beyond the basic guarantee. I don't care if it's 5 years down the road, your dog has a problem, I'll replace it and HOPE, you will want to keep your dog. In the 15 plus years I've had German Shepherds, I received one dog back. He liked to eat Chickens, but didn't want to wait until they were offered to him.

     I can train Duke the same way I trained all my other dogs. The difference is, I had high hopes of doing schutzhund.

     WHY??? I read here, where I respect the opinions "of most ", about responsible breeding, Breed survey, titles, etc., I am the first to admit, I know nothing about the training of a dog for schutzhund. The weather has not really allowed me to travel 2X a week 150 miles. I took Sophie to a trainer that, the first day choked her by the neck and lifted her off the ground. SCREW THAT! I didn't want to have Duke lose his drive for schuthund, by me doing something wrong in training and I guess I let go some of the things that I really didn't see getting out of hand. I am certain, it is not to late to stop this, I am certain my little dogs will be around for a long time. I will not be here crying about my loss, It hasn't happened in the 40+ years I've had dogs.I had Dobermans for 10 years,and a lion for 20. I understand the nature of the beast!!!!

PSSS:   I WILL NOT BE USING ANY SHOCK-COLLAR, I know nothing about them, and won't try to learn at the expense of my dog. And to all who posted, I received some great suggestions that I have already put into effect. I'll let you know what works.

You dont want to use the choke chain?   You train yourself?  And a lion?

I know what you mean about raising a dog off the ground on a choker, its hard to look at the first time you see it.   You could read William Koehlers books.  I dont know what you think a Shutzhund trainers gonna do thats any easier to look at.

Your the one who beat your dog with a rolled up newspaper. You think thats the best way to achieve success?

I am glad you wont be using a shock collar. 

You came asking advice, is there any here you like?  Whats your oppinion of all this advice?    What do you think you'll try?

I'm not judging you or picking at you, I just wondered if you have come to any conclusions at this point.

I know I have the same problem with dogs that are the same size and I worry about injuries, I have to keep them separated at times and always keep an eye on things when they are let out together. 

This lion thing, I've been around a few big cats.  Years ago I decided against raising them, you cant trust them.

I know of two maulings one resulted in death.  This was a mans bottle fed baby that he owned for years.  No reason, just one bite to the neck. 

Sorry I'm in a mood, just wondered if any of the advice made any sense to ya.