Genetic defects in puppy - Page 3

Is it possible for any form of mange to cause loss of pigment in the nose? The top of my dog's nose is losing pigment and appears red and inflamed.

I have a few pups get red noses when it gets cold. It appears red, but not really inflamed if you look closely. The color has always come back in a month or so.

Where I live it does not get cold. I think you are referring to "snow nose" which I have seen before, this is different and something that I have not seen before. The top of the nose has been red for 2+ months now and the area of lost pigment has increased in size.

Blitzen, As I said I do not minimize or dismiss the whole allergy thing. Thank god I have never had to live with that. I knew one dog years ago that had a horrible dermititis condition and the owners took wonderful care of her but when you walked into the house it literally stank from her skin condition it was so bad. I myself am atopic and deal with what I fondly call my creeping crud. The ironic part related to this discussion is I was first diagnosed as being atopic after an episode where I had been put on very very high doses of steriods for several months (wh/ didn't work). For me and I would underline that if I could, for me I've learned to basically not treat and it to will pass. Usually only shows up these days when I'm under extreme stress or suffering from another infection or serious illness wh/ yes is by definition an impaired immune system that I most likely inherited from my mom AND dad. Sh100 first of all thank you for the good care you are taking of this pup. Von s is right about you not being a "normal" owner and that is a good thing. We can not see the pup and we can not and should not diagnose by web. We can share with you our experiences and perhaps give you some heads up pointers. Re ivermectim - yes the same stuff for heartworm. My vet uses it to clear up "puppy" cases demodectic mange promptly. Older guy. Very practicalm knowledgeable with open mind, loves to hear from his "not normal" clients what they think and loves to know about new ideas and non medical solutions. And damn it all he's retiring and I can't find anybody that has a skill set remotely resembling his. Even with good vets these days, the focus on training is what is called alliopathic medicine which basically feels there has to be a drug for everything. Which is why it behooves us to educate ourselves as much as we can. You know sometimes the best solution is to do nothing - the old first do no harm. So with all those disclaimers in mind a few thoughts if I may.

sh100, my allergic GSD, Dylan, was not typical in that he suffered from some other serious diseases that were attributed to his compromised immune system. Having said that I am not 100% convinced that the annual rabies vacs that my vet insisted he needed were not a large part of his problem. I can't prove that, but I no longer follow an annual vaccination program with my dog, never will, and I will NEVER vaccinate him against kennel cough or lyme. I digress, back to Dylan - in addition to the allergies, when he was around 4 years old, Dylan was also treated for a chronic bacterial sinusitis. He developed this within a week of receiving an intranasal kennel cough vaccine and was receiving his allergy shots at that time too. IMO that kennel cough vac caused the sinusitis and the soft tissue surgeon who did both of his operations reluctantly agreed that it did seem like something more than a mere coincidence. In spite of the very best vet care in the east, he never recovered from that sinus infection and sneezed strings of mucous and blood for the balance of his life. He was unable to "fight" the bacteria that had invaded his sinus cavity. A few years later, at 7, he was diagnosed with lymphosarcoma, a form of canine leukemia and had chemotherapy. Some vets feel this disease is also the result of a compromised immune system, but that is debatable. During his chemo he developed what looked much like the beginning stages of degenerative myelopathy, commonly known as "DM" a neurological disease of dogs that is very common in the GSD. DM may also have an autoimmune component. Once a dog is proven to have an allergy, food or inhalation, it is also proven that the immune system is not functioning properly thus the dog is an immune cripple and not a good beeding candidate. If your pups nose doesn't get better, you might consider that punch biopsy. I aassume the lesion is confined to the top of the nose leather where it meets the fur? That sort of biopsy is fast and easy and as far as I know, it is the only way to diagnose discoid lupus. Watch the area surrounding his eyes, his muzzle and the tips of his ears as they seem to be the most common areas to be effected if it really is lupus. It certainly is possible that he could recover from this on his own as a result of his immune sytems' maturing. He's still very much a baby dog. Please don't take this to mean your pup has a certain life of gloom and doom. Dylan was an unusually unhealthy GSD. It was just the luck of the draw I guess.

Remember I have NOT seen this puppy. Yes, I think there is the POSSIBILITY that this is something as simple as related to the teething dip for two reasons. 1. "It may be nothing more than coincidence, but when he started teething full force is when these issues began." and 2. Lupus is not unkown in GSD but it is not at all common and as I noted usually a diagnosis arrived much later in the dog's life. Now that doesn't mean you shouldn't be communicating with the breeder because I'm sure they want to be kept in the loop and know what's going on. They may have some good info for you also - as in oh ya I've had puppies do that while they were teething and they are completely fine (or not as the case may be). Have you made sure that it was not something simple like the puppy scraping his nose trying to get under a fence. I'm also curious about the comment " The dermatologist stated that she had a lot of experience with this particular disorder and that sun exposure was a big factor in my area." well maybe but unless you're in Australia it's winter isn't it? Not much sunlight around. As I mentioned unfortunately with GSDs many vets look for the elephant sitting in the living first no last becasue it is a GSD. So this behooves you to be very well informed about both diagnois and treatment. You have the advantage today that so much information is available on the web - just make sure it comes from a reliable source. Now not one of my favorite resources because it is an "open" db but a quick search on tacrolimus pulls up a lot of info including a wikipedia entry. " As an ointment (Protopic®), tacrolimus is a recent addition in the treatment of eczema, particularly atopic dermatitis. It suppresses inflammation in a similar way to steroids, and is equally as effective as a mid-potency steroid." Contraindications include use in infants(hmm) and if your read the side effects it can actually cause problems similar to what it is being used for and "Skin infections should be cleared prior to application, and there may be an increased risk of certain skin infections." So it is a steriod type of drug and runs the risk of setting up bacterial infections. I'm also curious why you would use and immunosupressive drug if you figure the patient already as a suppresed immune system -certainly a question I would ask. It at least sounds to me that there are several areas to look at before this dog is pronouced immune deficient. Good luck and please let us know how your pup does.

sh100, I meant to ask if you are near Buckeysville.

I have had/bred/trains GSDs since 1964 and have never owned nor bred (to the best of my knowledge) a dog with atopic disease. Let me quote Willis from his 1991 book THE GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG:

Blitzen - agree with you about the vaccinations. I also never give the first rabies until 6 months despite what the law requires and my vet agrees. He also has been on board for years with limiting the " annual" boosters especially in older dogs. Guide dogs in England did a study years ago about the parvo vaccine because there was some evidence that it was linked to lower fertility in males and stillborns and fertility problems in bitches. Both confirmed. They went to a system of initially inoclulating their males and then doing titer levels. 90% never needed revaccination. The 10% that did they suspected might be a related to autoimmune issues but did not take the study there. With bitches they changed the protocol from giving it shortly before breeding to after a litter had been whelped and raised. Found the titer levels sufficient for the next litter a year later that way AND were not so high as to interfere with puppies getting the right immune response when they were vaccinated. Years ago I went to testing the titer levels on my male. He had such a high titer level for parvo he was effectively protected for the next thousand years. Jean Dodds has done a lot of work on vaccine related illnesses and feels we are killing the immune system of our dogs by over vaccinating them. I especially hate these 17,000 in one shots. Hell I'll make five separate trips but you can not even find single vaccine these days(vaccine not single dose). You can NOT tell me those don't overwhlem a poor developing immune system. So Sh100 another question for you. How does his vaccination scheme fit into this and did he get some of that all in one wonder stuff? For Blitzen and Sh100 even if you choose not to share pedigrees can you share linebreeding or some information about the lines involved?

Actually discoid lupus is relatively common in the GSD and some of the other herding breeds. Shelties in particular. Those on this board may not see it often. I think that more dogs from American lines are effected than from German lines. GSD's are listed in the text books as one of the breeds most effected. Here's an interesting link to some info on this disease. http://www.ccsplace.net/4friends/lupus.htm