Opening the stud book - Page 3

Jamille,  Well said wholeheartedly agree. Can you copy and paste this to the thread on cross breeding please. Thanks.

Ok  I'm not done. 

If people want to cross breed, to improve working ability for Police , Narc, bomb, Sar .    That's fine,  then call it what it is .  

A   " CROSS BREED"  

I have one in my kennel right now ,   a German shepherd/ Malinois .    Fantastic dog! 

But to label him a  level  1 breed stock on his way to producing full blooded German shepherds again is not right. 

He has a purpose and the ability for work,  that does not mean he needs to affect the gene pool any farther than him self.   Or lets say he gets bred to  a German shepherd, or a malinois, or another cross.    Then once again they are all crosses.    That's fine!   Call them what they are.  

We Do not need to Recreate what is already here.    If you want to cross something Cross A German shepherd to a German shepherd with " NO COMMON ANCESTRY FOUND IN THE FIRST 7 GENERATIONS" 

Find Great dogs with Great paper history''s , and cross them

none of what I have said is directed at anyone in particular.  : )

This forum does something to me

VKFGSD,  

Thanks,    I must have been writing when you posted, 

sure , I don't mind to copy and paste  my posts.   IF I can find the thread you are talking about.

: ) 

Jamille, I agree with you and you can reread my posts.

However, your Katharina is an example of what is wrong with customized cross breeding. For different purposes. There are other breeds out there for those purposes! Please do not misunderstand me. I am absolutly certain that she is a lovely horse. But is she what a Friesan is supposed to be by heritage? Would you pick an old english sheepdog for SchH? (not to say he could not do it - but why not choose a german shepherd to begin with if SchH is the goal?)(and if you heart was set on an old english sheepdog then would you go hunting for the one that mother nature put here or would you propose breeding him to SchH standard?) Not sure if that makes any sense.

But to me that is why I agree with your stand on the GSD's. So I am a bit confused by the horse thing.

For someone like me, what has happend to the real Trakehner by bringing in too much other blood is a crying shame. A bad example for crossbreeding. It almost destroyed the breed. My father and grandfather still worked with the real deal. By the time I came along those where hard to find and the Trakehner had a bad reputation for being unstable, goofy and a few other things. And by the way, I do like Arabians too. For what they are bred for.

With all the discussion on what is good or bad or going down hill with the GSD, I was curious if there has ever been any discussion on opening the stud book to other breeds. 

Yeah, there's been like for discussion just this past week.

Goose,  

I don't really see how we are saying things much differently from each other.  

The friesians are not mine and they are fully branded ect...   have gone to inspections ect....  and like I said they are the German lines not Dutch ,,   so I am going to assume that what ever breeding program they came from was from all approved stock, under the strict guidelines and every thing.    I am not saying I agree or disagree, with this, just stating the facts. 

the Arabian/cross's  on the other hand are clearly    a   "  CROSS BREEDING "     no different than the GSD's crossed with other breeds.    Really my points are the same. 

What the Trakehner society chose to do with the Trakehners has it own pitfalls.   This is an example of crossing out and then after so many generations claiming to be a full Trakehner again.    That is a sign that the Trakehner did not have a very solid foundation and they were still trying to achieve a type. 

like most Warmbloods, they got way to heavy and had no energy , stamina , or the physical abilities(Joints breaking down)  to withstand the Stresses of any horse sport.  Esp.   DRESSAGE.  

People did the same thing with Pintabians.     Paint / Arabian crosses      But , then again the are not calling them full blooded Arabians they are calling  " Pintabians"    The goal though is to have the highest percentage of Arabian and still have the painted colors. 

Now, there are Arabians and Thoroughbreds that are approved to improve certain qualities lacking or needed in the other breeds.     Just as you mentioned.

In Fact, 

2 of the horses I currently have:

1Arabian Stallion

1Akle Teke/ Trakehner Stallion

Are Approved and Branded American Warmbloods.  This means that they have the qualities desired to contribute to the Warmblood Standards.

1 of the Arabian Mares I have is the Dam of the Arabian Stallion,  and she had produced another Approved and Branded American Warmblood, and he was half Trakehner, was also gelded and sold. 

so my point to all of this is that all of these Arabian crosses are not turning around and eventually becoming Arabians again.   They are contributing to breeds that are trying to get established or to ones that have problems.   Arabians have been around for a much longer time than any other breed besides the Akle Teke.      Pretty much every breed if you look back far enough has Arabian in it.   and with the Thoroughbred ,  there is Arabian and Akle Teke. 

If I wanted to Improve my arabians I would first look into the many other lines of Arabian before I would outcross.  There are many lines of Arabians

Crabbet

Polish

Egyptian

Spanish

Ect.. 

This is no different than how I feel about the GSD's.   

If someone wants to Cross GSD'S   with what ever they are crosses,  or they are on there way to improving some other breeds misfortune or vice versa,    These are not going to become full blooded GSD's again. 

Hope it is not all too confusing : ) 

We are not!  I am not touching the American Warmblood thing with a ten foot pole.

But the rest we actually agree like I stated before. I just read your post on your clients Frisiens wrong.

But you open another can of worms totally with the physical breakdown. And maybe some of that also crosses to the GSD's. When I grew up the horses that were shown upper level where well above 10 years old. They were built carefully. They did not compete Grand Prix, Prix St. George at 9 years of age. So to me the current trend towards more and faster has a lot to do with the physical problems we see in our animals. Also in the dogs. I don't see a single reason why a dog has to have a ScHH3 at age 2. Others than money.

By the way, I would love to see a pic of your guys some day. So no, we don't disagree.

Hi Golden Elk,

Actually, one AKC stud book was reopened in the late 1980's, to get control of an hereditary disease (not to a different breed, but to dogs whose ancestry could not be verified):

Before 1987, AKC Basenji's didn't come in brindle.

Micky

And Schutzhund was originally designed as a 1 time breed worthiness test not as a sport that dogs would compete in 130 times. Perhaps that too relates to the break downs. Plus how many of these dogs are actually treated as the athletes they are expected to be. Do they get to run free in a large area ( not the back yard) every day or at least once a week or do they spend the majority of their lives sitting in a crate or kennel w/ no real exercise. Have they been taught to jump right? As horse people you understand the importance of that and training exercises ot develop the correct skill. Most dog people do not have a clue.

Thanks for mentioning the Basenji, Micky. I hope those who are not familar with their history will click on the link  you provided and read all about it. It truly is an inspiratonal story that demonstrates how a handful of dedicated breeders united to make a difference and save their breed from certain extinction.