Question regarding BLACK Shepherds..... - Page 3

Blacks can come from many combos.

Black to black

Black to sable - with rececessive gene

Sable to sable - both having black recessive gene

Yes, there are some breeders who breed for blacks, and some who like blacks and get them but black is not a priority or the ONLY reason they are bred.  Stay away from a breeder whose primary concern in a mating is the color black (or white!!)

Some notable black dogs in Europe

Jucan Peroh

Inox Haus Ming

Pike Schafbachmuhle

Paska Saltztalblick

Elliot Hambachler Schlossblick

Ufo Guy's Hof

Gary Hanarhan has a nice black dog he had at the Nationals too.

I was really puzzed for a minute there when one poster said that sable is dominant to all other colors, since I had a sable bitch, who, bred to a blanket black, had only blanket blacks.  Then it was explained to me by Drew, when he said that a sable CAN throw other colors when bred to a black or blanket black, PROVIDING the sable carried the black recessive. That explains it for me, as there is no chance my sable bitch was bred by any other dog!

sable dogs can carry black/tan recessive, black recessive or another sable gene.  Every dog carries two color genes, one dominant which is the color they are, and one recessive which can be passed on to puppies.  Sable is always dominant.  A dog that carries one sable gene will be a sable dog.  If puppies are sable one of the parents must be a sable.  If the sable carries another sable gene, all puppies from any litter no matter the color of the other parent, will be sable.  If the sable carries a black/tan gene, he could produce sable or black/tan puppies depending on the other parent's color and recessive.  If the sable carries black, then he could produce sable, black/tan or black depending on the other parent's color and recessive.

molly

Can anybody explain how bi-colors patterns come about? Is it just a fluke that a black and tan dog ends up with a bigger spread of black? But then they have the tar markings on top of the tan/red color.

Bicolor is a black/tan with a "modifyer gene" or a "tag' on the black/tan making the dog bicolor.  But genetically the bicolor dog is black/tan.

Thanks Molly, I thought it was something along those lines.

Nice Black GSDs IMO that are on this database:
V Pitt vom Haus Krompass SchH3 -from a good while back
V Treu vom Schaferleisel SchH1 (DDR) 

Well, it's been my proven experience that some dogs, whether they be male or female, tend to carry a strong ability to produce their color or traits, irregardless of the mate's color or traits. Even if their color is a recessive color-it works much the same for stallions. Some black stallions throw their black strong in breedings although others do not. It seems up to individuals and what they have personally inherited.

I have a 3+yr old solid black stud dog named Kohle with bloodlines actually to 2x SGR VA Fanto vom Hirschel SchH3 FH (well known blk/reds)-he's around 60% WGR show lines and 40% WGR working lines bred. When he's been bred with these following 100% West German show line traditional blk/red females with NO black at least within 7+ generations in their pedigrees, here is the results: Lisa had 2 solid black out of 3 born 3/20/06 in her litter, and Abbie had 5 black pups out of 10 on 10/03/06. 
When he's been bred with a female with black in the pedigree somewhere, litters seem to turn out with only like 2 bicolors or blk/tans with the rest being black:  bi-color female Jessie had 9 (7 black, 2 bi-color) on 11/30/07 and traditional blk/tan Furia had 9 (7 black, 2 blk/tans) on 4/11/07.
We just got told a blk/reddish tan female Greta bred to our black male who had blk/red and sable background (show lines-2x VA2 Timo vom Berrekasten SchH3 FH2 IP3) just had her litter of 6 pups out of our black stud born 11/22/07 on Thanksgiving Day-and 4 of the 6 pups I am told are black. Greta has ONE single black dog in her 5th generation of her pedigree on her mother's side.

These above are all AKC registerable litters so they can be verified. Some were from my own females and some were stud jobs. And this is not the typical predicted expectancy of the recessive black to show up in breedings involving so many dominant blk/red and/or sable dogs!  

One litter that is not AKC registered involves another traditional blk/red 100% WGR show line female named Rayna. With no black in her background within 7+ gens, she had 1 pup out of Kohle 8/02/07, he was solid black without a speck of white or anything else on him anywhere. I have pictures of this pup to verify this. 

My thoughts on all this is this: just like all humans basically stemmed from Adam & Eve (and thus we carry in our genetic make-up things that stem from as far back as our origin), dogs, too, had to have stemmed from some common source as well. Everything used to form this breed, whether it be white, black, sable, short coat, long coat, wolves potentially, or whatever, is all somewhere hidden in the genetic mix of every GSD. It's up to the magic of genetics and fate when 2 GSDs are brought together for breeding what will be produced. We can predict with some degree of accuracy what the outcome should be, but genetics can also sneak in there a big surpriser for us from time to time. I find it all very fascinating and amazing. Expecting a litter of puppies can be more exciting than Christmas Day! If you want to find out if your female or male is a carrier of black, breed him or her with a black mate who is proven to throw their black strong irregardless of how they're bred-if its there, you'll have a good chance to see it produced!

As far as black GSDs in conformation showing, the color is solid, which tends to show structural faults more than the broken coat colors of a blk/red, blk/tan or sable. Therefore, it can be potentially tougher for a solid black GSD

to show in conformation than a dog with other colors as well. The coat also can turn a reddish cast if not properly protected from the UV rays of the sun during summer months. And of course a solid black body would draw more heat during summer months while training, traveling and working at trials so special consideration for such has to be made when working with and showing black GSDs. 
Both solid black and traditional blk/red GSDs are beautiful dogs to behold and own. They both have their place in things, too. Black GSDs are harder to detect at night and make good dependable family watch dogs if bred right or come from a reputable breeder. It's all up to people and what they ultimately like and prefer.

katjo74,

you are so right about black dogs being hard to see at night,

I used to get up during the night and would always be tripping
over my black girl Millie, she was a big girl about 100 lbs, so 
you couldn't miss her, I kept her daughter Mira, hoping to downsize,
cause Millie was so big, and Mira turned out just right, an even 78 lbs
everytime we visit the vets!

For some reason, black dogs seem to be in higher demand right now. We just had that discussion on the German workingline board. My O-litter was intentionally bred for this color. I had done tons of research and I have to say that I was very happy with the results. So were my puppy owners, and I could have had ten more puppies. The amount of inquiries we received was unbelievable. I did not really want to but my husband talked me into keeping two of these puppies and now I am glad.

Drew, you mentioned Paska vom Salztalblick. He was the sire of my O-litter and now it seems that these will be his last puppies. I heard it from two different sources this weekend and I talked to his owner/breeder this morning. Paska died a week or so  ago, due to a long standing injury. I had checked the SV stud news regularly but had not seen any more breeding reports after mine, and I was lucky because prior to breeding my Chuckie he was laid off for 6 months or so for the same reason. So, I seriously hope that my Onyx and my Olympia will turn out. They are only 10 weeks old and it is a long rocky road from a puppy to a titled and breed surveyed adult.

For anybody interested in another good male out of Paska's line, please check out Nino von der Salztalhöhe. Willi Müller told me that he is really nice and just as good as Paska. He calls him a worthy representative of his father. Of course, Nino just turned two years old 5 days ago and still needs to fill out. www.salztalblick.de

Chris