Longcoats and breeding - Page 3

But that breeding still opens the window for the offspring if bred to offspring from the same situation (and truely, who really knows what the coat type on every dog from your dogs litter was, especially if in Germany and purchased as an adult), will produce long coats so why would a litter be bred that would knowingly carry that gene.

BTW, check out the feathering on Ultje, the photo shadows it well but I bet if we got a head shot of her, she would have the same coat as Xyra has. I personally think some of those West German "High Line" dogs are cutting it close and they still walk away with their V ratings so I am not overly confident on the SV Show standards here in the US.

As for those who complain about working the long coats, to each their own. Considering there are many long coats serving our military, law enforcement, working as Guide Dogs, and so on and so forth, I would say it isn't too hard for someone who regularly grooms their dog as I would hope as an owner/handler, you would do anyway.

Another question is then why is breeding a long coat any different than breeding a dog with a "Mole skin" type coat (seen in many working lines). They pull off a G or SG and skim through with a KKL2, Are they too producing dogs with coats like theres making them too cold for working in cold climates.

I think anyone who thinks the system is perfect needs to sit back and rethink thinks. There is NO perfect beast. Personally if the dog has passing Hips, Elbows, Heart, Thyroid, and Eyes (as EVERY one of my breeding dogs is before being considered for breeding), has no aggression or fear faults, is within size standard and not horribly angulated or roach backed (by the way has anyone seen some of the West German Show lines coming through, ugghh!! talk about angulation!) and the only fault is as minor as a coat which is slightly longer, than it is the least of my worries. Do I prefer if that dog is not coated, sure. Do I try to find a male which does not carry the coated gene, sure I try.

I guess thats why this is America. The land of the free. I just wish we put a tad bit of effort into the breeding of Humans, even just health clearances would be a good start!!

Tina

Am I the only one that sees where this is going? Where are you, animules!

The majority of stock /long coats produced are produced by parents that are not stock coats and often from the V or VA rated dogs.  NEVER (from what I have seen or read or heard) is there ANY concern around this and NEVER are these dogs taken out of the 'gene pool' for producing LARGE numbers of stock/long coated puppies.  Some VA dogs (I know of one for sure) have produced WHOLE litters of long/stock coats...now how does that happen???????  As long as one is within the 'boundaries' of being 'legal' (as far as SV rules) then it is o.k. to breed as many long or stock coats as one wants.  So, it really isn't about how they are not 'worthy' of being bred, or that having this type of coat is 'bad' for a working dog.  It is only about the current SV 'rules' for breeding.  To me there is a huge difference between a true 'long coat" (not having both inner and outer coats) and the stock coats. Stock coats (with both under and outer coats) also come in several different lengths. This makes a difference to me from a 'working' perspective.  Many of the shorter stock coats are often mistaken for a regular plush coat.  And I would bet....that some VA dogs are actually stock coats.......course, this is just my (and some others) opinions.....

Tossing in my two cents. I personally, LOVE long coats! They are gorgeous! However, I would never intentionally breed a long coat. Many many many dogs already carry the gene for the long coat, and we know we will produce a couple anyway, SO WHY BREED FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

KCzaja, I see where this is going, and it won't be pretty. Got popcorn?

A longcoat is a DQ and not eligible for a breed survey. If you are breeding to the SV rules, then you would never breed a longcoat. If you are not breeding to the SV rules, then you would. Not really rocket science and it depends on your goals for your own breeding program and the breed in general.

There is now a DNA test that will tell you if your dog is a longcoat and/or if it carries that gene recessively, so there is no longer a reason to guess which dogs do or do not carry the longcoat factor. I suspect many of the top dogs would test positive for being carriers and also positive for being longcoated; these would be the plush coats who pass their breed surveys. Genetically they will be longcoats.  After a while you can easiily recognize them by the length of their coats and because the coats is "uneven" over their bodies. The dogs with the shorter, even coats will not test postive as longcoats and will probably not be carriers either.

The length of the coat and the presence or absence of undercoat is determined by modifying genes, so some longcoats will have more length and some will or will not have undercoat. The longcoat gene is ONE gene and either a dog carries it or it doesn't. A plush will not produce any fewer coats that will a longcoat. This is why this gene is so ingrained in the breed. Somehow breeders have been led to believe that breeding to a plush is not going to produce any (or as many) longcoats as breeding to a longcoat. This is not true in most cases. I also suspect some coats are trimmed and receive a breed survey that way.

Long, soft coats with little or no undercoat are not survival characteristics and dogs with those types of coats could not survive during a cold, wet German winter without human intervention. Some will even freeze fast to the ground tearing out their coats damaging their skin when they try to get up from sleeping.  They soak up water like a sponge. Shepherds do not carry tack boxes and would not groom longcoats  in order that could survive. This is why you never see sleddogs with long, soft coats. The few with longer coats have very harsh texture and a lot of undercoat that sheds water. Otherwise a longcoat will become soaked to the skin, form ice balls in it's coat and between it's pads and that would be a death sentence for a tending dog during a German winter. 

To breed or not to breed.? You be the judge.

It might be interesting to note that the stock coat gene was likley introduced to the german shepherd through the introduction of the herding dogs.  These dogs were also introduced into the 'line/german shepherd' to help improve the temperament of the breed.   If one is really going to look and compare the coat to herding heritage of the breed then we need to look at these things as well as how the tight/slick coat is more of a detriment to this type of a working dog than a stock coat would be.  There are MANY herding breeds with an abundance of coat and they all do thier job very well.  Again, it really depends on the length of the coat, and of couse, whether or not they have both inner and outer coat.  I do not like the true longcoat (where you have one coat) and feel this is a very big fault and never should be bred. However, the stock coat is in a different class to me.  Breeding to a stock coat is also never my first choice!!  The dog would need to be exceptional.  And there are GOOD reasons to breed to a stock coat at times.  I bred to one several years ago.  I had a choice of several different sires, however , this guy was just exceptional on sheep.  His pedigree to die for and combined with my dogs pedigree once again brought back some of the great, respected,top HGH lines and working dogs.  The breeding produced EXCEPTIONAL dogs.  Litter of 8.  2 are certified explosive detection dogs.  One works here in Vancouver at the ports. The other one  was just hired by the Montreal police force.  THis is the FIRST time they have hired a dog and handler that is NOT a police officer but a civilian team.  The dog needed to go ahead to be tested and they loved him.   Another dog from the litter is a hearing assisant dog for someone who is deaf.  My boy is THE most talented and natural tending/herding dog I have EVER seen (and I have worked a ton of german shepherds).  He is also incredible at bitework which he loves. He is everything his pedigree says he should be.  Another brother has his SchH 1 and is working on II and III.  This one is a stock coat who most people say is NOT a stock coat as his coat is so short.  The remaining pups are in active companion homes.  (I had 2 stock coats in the litter...that is it out of 9).  The second stock coat is very short as well.  You only know he is one by a few hairs around his ears.   The sire of this litter is an exceptional dog.  His pedigree is exceptional.  Combined with my dogs pedigree.....brought together a blending of dogs/lines that could 'save' some of the traits of the HGH, tending/boudary dogs.  So few are out there these days with the dogs up close in the pedigree.   It bothered me some that he was a stock coat, and I wasn't sure 'what' I would get but have not been dissapointed.  This male was the BEST choice for a stud for my female at that time and no, I don't believe I could find the same dog, same pedigree that would produce the same quality that I did from him. I just had the third litter with this female.  Bred to a short coated sable with some very nice lines. (also a bomb dog).  Got 8 pups, 2 are stock coats.  Same as the breeding with the stock coat.  I must admit that I get real tired of hearing how one should not breed to a stock coat as it will produce some stock coats....when the majority of long coats as well as stock coats come from breedings that are NOT from stock coats and these are continually bred over and over with no concern that 1/2 the litters are long coats (often with just the ONE coat).  

Stock coats were allowed for breeding up until a short time ago.  Many believe this will happen again.  I personally feel it should.  I DON"T breed FOR the stock coat and doing this is just as bad as ANY other breeder that

breeds for one specific trait.  Breeding should always be about producing the best dogs physcially and mentally.  A dog that was bred to WORK.

stock coat is the correct term for normal NOT long or plush coated.  Long-stock is the correct term for the "plush" or long-coated dog with undercoat, used to be allowed for breeding but no longer.  Long-coated is the term for dogs with "true long coat - no undercoat and long/silky/soft outercoat like a setter. 

When referring to breeding coats with undercoat, refer to it by the correct term of long-stock coat.  Not stock.

molly

As far as whether or not a longcoat is weather resistant, it's all about the texture of the guardhairs and the presence of undercoat. A long, soft coat with no appreciable undercoat is just not going to hack it in a cold, wet climate unless there is human intervention.

hmmm, should a pairing of two V-rated dogs be avoided in the future, if they produce two long coats in a litter of seven?

Just curious.

While I am at it, should a pairing of two V-rated dogs that produce two pups out of a litter of six males and 1 female, that have one testicle that does not drop until six months old, be avoided in the future?