The Pet Quality Pup Issue Again? - Page 3

Just to share a thought---  Fifty plus years in dogs, from "German Police Dogs" in the late 40's to German Shepherd Dogs to the 4 five week old puppies in the bedroom now----- What I read and hear never ceases to amaze me! One who "LOVES THE BREED" refers to a purebred loyal companion GSD with a purpose in life, a "job" guarding a home and the owners loved ones as nothing but a pet?? Working lines and show lines? A sad state and shameful! What have some done to Max's breed? Among breeds if the German Shepherd Dog is not best at anything--- He is for certain second best--- You name it, across the board to "lap dog"!  A pet? We who love the breed should drop that word from our vocabulary now and forever. At minimum, a companion and family member---- Freedom in these United States? You better wake up and hug your dog because in a few years you may not be able to own one if you don't become part of the solution. Bickering about a title? You may well be part of the problem. A fellow brought his family to look at puppies a few years back and a friend, proved to be a schutzhund wannabe, to help in selection. He said,"But your male is NOT titled". I said "SShhhh--- if you don't tell these puppies their daddy didn't go to college they won't know the difference. Want to see his protection work? Strike me and run!" The family purchased a puppy and in June they took home their 3rd puppy. I have done my thing over the past 50 odd years and I think others have the same right. I have never bred "pets"! I have had dogs on the job, in many phases. I have to be careful what I say to avoid bickering or arguments, because I can introduce you to so many folks who truly believe their dog was the "GREATEST". I have even had puppies grow up to play schutzhund. Some today talk about the "golden middle" ----- hogwash!!!  Talk about The GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG as it SHOULD BE. Meaningful discussion always welcome--- suggest others choose another wall. HAVE NOT ADVERTISED FOR OVER 25 YEARS EITHER!!!! It CAN be done.

Yours in the breed,

Morgan

PJDogs: "A pet? We who love the breed should drop that word from our vocabulary now and forever. At minimum, a companion and family member."

That's a compelling arguement too.

The problem as I see it is this...most people who want a pet are unwilling to pay the sort of money a dog from titled parents would sell for, even if it IS only 'pet quality'.

Let me give you an example. When i was on vacation this summer, I took my dogs to a kid's vacation Bible school that my friend's kids were attending. They sat and watched as the children hit a pinata, yelling and screaming as they egged on the person swinging the stick. Everyone there was impressed by my dog's calm, friendly behaviour, and I had one parent ask where he could get a German Shepherd like mine. He had a home in the country, and wanted a dog that was good with kids, and could also function as a watchdog.

I told him my pup was from a breeder in the States, and her half-brother was for sale for $600.

The man shook his head, and said, "I'm sorry, that's too much. I wouldn't be willing to pay more than $200."

It's that way in most rural areas. City people are willing to pay more, but the rural mentality is, "I'm not paying big bucks for something that's not livestock, and going to bring ME money!"

That's the facts of life, folks. You may talk all you want about improving the breed, but the above type of buyer will make sure that the BYB's always have a ready market for their pups. I know those of us who care about the breed find that sad, but what can you do?

Just a question or two concerning this issue.  Directed to those that have had many litters on the ground.

Do you have to advertise or are all of the pups from your dogs eagerly anticipated and awaited?

Do you ever have pups way beyond (let's say) 10 weeks old, because of a lack of customers?

Do you sometimes have to keep a pup or two, up to age 5 to 9 months old, because you were unable to "move it" (sell) sooner?

Is it sometimes tough to sell all of your pups, in a timely manner?

Does the price go up or down, if it takes longer to move a litter?

These are not loaded questions or an attempt to get someone to slip up, so that I can nit pick about anything.  They are serious questions I am curious about.

So the arguement isn't really about bettering the breed, but as Shelly put it at one time, to maintain the breed at least, then build upon it.

So how do you educate people? Personally, If I had shutz trained dogs, I would demonstrate at  elementary schools, or middle schools for fun. They'd get a kick out of it, and you can inform the kids about the type of breeding and such. Little information goes a long ways.

So the arguement isn't really about bettering the breed, but as Shelly put it at one time, to maintain the breed at least, then build upon it.

So how do you educate people? Personally, If I had shutz trained dogs, I would demonstrate at  elementary schools, or middle schools for fun. They'd get a kick out of it, and you can inform the kids about the type of breeding and such. Little information goes a long ways.

The most noble job a dog can have is family friend and protector. Those dogs should be the most stable and truest of character. A sport or show dog that cant be that is not a true GSD either. So IMO "pet" quality should be the highest priced.

Hi Do Right,

I have been breeding/training/competing with GSD for over 30 years. In years past I had to advertise in local papers and dog magazines to sell my litters, whether both parents were 'titled" (SchH) or not. With the internet, it is easier to reach a larger number of people, most of whom have more willingness to pay a reasonable fee for a good dog. They are computer literate and they shop around. Some still send the "'got pupies, how much" emails, but most are doing their research before they buy, and most are repeat Shepherd owners.

I have spend thousands of $ importing titled dogs (even SchH3's) that when they got here they could play SchH, but couldn't work their way out of a paper sack when it comes to actually protecting their family or doing 'real' work. Don't get me wrong, I have titled more than 40 of my own dogs in SchH, and I enjoy it, but SchH is no longer really a breeding tool, it is a SPORT.

Dogs trained and titled using only Prey drives can look flashy, but unless your home is invaded by a rabbit, don't automatically expect that titled dog to be a 'proven protector' capable of handling the job, yet also be clear in the head and social as well.

Top SchH competiton dogs are mostly trained with sharpened pinch collars and electric shock collars and VERY harsh training methods because those dogs have been breed for high pain tolerance (don't et me wrong, I don't like wimps either) and "handler hardness" (resistant to seeing man as their leader) and they can only really be safely handled by VERY experienced handlers. Is that really what we want all GSD's to be like? Sure, there are exceptions, and I'm sure I may get reemed for this, but I think the SPORT is not the saviour of the breed. IT is the breeders that are very experience, and can honestly evaluate their dogs to decide who to breed, and to whom (titled or not). Of course this requires a first hand familiarity with both breeding dogs to be able to make such judgements, so it is not a viable option for everyone.

I have produced many police and SAR and Threapy and CCI dogs from an untilted parent, but I knew what the dog was and bred it properly.

I have a waiting list for my puppies, whether both parents are titled or not, and they have to pay a deposit to be on the list to show they are sincere. I will not sell to someone just because theywant one of my dogs and are willing to pay for it. I ask questions of everyone, and I warn them a GSD is NOT for everyone. I mention this not to 'toot my own horn' but just in answer to your question. (Jackie Athon)

PJ dogs good post...they are the ones who took my post and blew it up...plain and simple all dogs do not have to be titled to produce well was my point ..yes breed awareness and selective breeding and titles are great but  I have a untitled female that shines like a diamond and should be breed and is breed worthy end of point. .I  know of a lot of hobby breeders who do a great job have xrays done, decent lines, good health and temperament and why should they not be allowed to breed if they have a market for a great family dog.  Placing a dog in a family and having them call you two or three years and thank you for such a great dog what a reward for any breeder I am just as proud of that than the dogs who go on to be titled.  ..I have seen some schutzhund dogs that were not as cared for as quote pet dogs and of course vise versa I am sure. I hate the snoddy breeders who think they are the only ones doing anything in the world for the breed.  My puppies are 1,500 and not every family can spend this for dog so the quality dogs from some hobby breeders offer a lower priced animal and what harm is in this? No I do not like puppy mills but these are not the people I am speaking of. Marlene

Scout Quote,  " The most noble job a dog can have is family friend and protector. Those dogs should be the most stable and truest of character. A sport or show dog that cant be that is not a true GSD either.

and that would be the point I was trying to make, at least that portion of your statement !!   Thank You Nicely Done,  Short and Sweet !!

As far as education goes....  Who knows what works,  I know personal exp. works,  But all the education that Humane Society's do in schools DON"T seem to be having much effect on Spay/Neuter awareness or other aspects either....  Personal Exp.  that Bad taste in the persons mouth when they get a dog that did NOT match them,  That Sticks with them,  I know that to be fact,  time and time and time again....

DeesWolf,   I see no folley in breeding quality, to provide families with a cherished FAMILY MEMBER !!!!   As I said before,  The FAMILY members are NOT the ones coming to the shelter or the rescue.....

No insults intended to anyone so please don't take it that way....   :-)