workingline best new stud - Page 29

 Quote:  I brought up the dog in the blind earlier in the thread. Jeff had his retort and I was glad you took the time to type your heart out. I wasn't going to argue with the guy.

Retort ? There is an escape out of the blind, how far did the decoy get ? I guess getting the job done isn't enough. You don't have to argue, I just figured you had an empty response that was lame, and decided better than to bring it up.

Since the sport only requires one bark, and loses points for every meter lost on the escape, what do you think the dog would of looked like if it was trained like in Sch ? LOL It is the training that is the difference.

Jeff, I didn't post a reply because you're the best trainer I know.

 Don, I replied because you seemed confused about the difference in training. You thought the dog was less, because he was not TRAINED the same way that the Sch dogs are. So you got faked out by the training. You can make a smart ass remark, but the responses that you made showed that you fail to see a difference between training Sch, and training ring. 

 Jeff, isn´t the ideal a dog that has both prey and defence/aggression or whatever you call it, why would a dog with both parts be a dog that has been added things in training and less natural than many ringdogs or SCH dogs that are more in "playmode" because they can get the points anyway? I think many wants a dog that bring his qualities as natural as possible without much stimuluis from a helper but I don´t see how this contradicts with prey and defence, it´s not so much an issue of prey and defence I believe, what good is either if the dog can´t stand his ground when he feels a real threath outside the conditioned sporttrial? I know mondioring/frenchring seems to train mainly with preydrive, but it´s not only in SCH that you can see dogs that don´t view the decoy as a bitetug but rather want a dog that has some seriousness in his work and I think those dogs often are most impressive, and you find them in KNPV, BR or other venues as well, it´s not only SCH.

I don´t think a dog can be judged from his sporrperformance only for breeding, I suppose it´s to hard to see what is natural and not, especially when the sporttrials only test the dog in a few pretrained situation. 

No, jeff, I understand the difference. Go back and read my first post on Esko's G-pa thread. But are you telling me that dog was trained to look at the handler instead of the helper the whole time?

i came in on the  thread viewing the last post... having done Sch , and Rings sports ..  police and pers. protection .. with ALL my GSDS [ or malinois]  prey , defense or both prey/defense.... I have personally trained for my dogs to look at me at all times even in ALL aspects of protection work !! for two reasons ! .. a dog is controlled by teaching self control and by using our minds !!! where the yes go .. so do the thoughts !!  AND 2. i don't care if someone is threatening me 2 feet away , and i mean 2 feet - "achtung is Achtung !! so before you look at a dog .. take a real good look at the handler and understand how the dog was trained ... IMO - take a look at the handler , take a look at the dog  the dog and then the  two together - a very experienced person can tell you exactly what each [ handler and dog] is made of ..what was taught , how it was taught and what the bent of the dog is  that's just an opinion ...

Oh joy! Christmas came late this year. Alphpup and Jeff on the same thread. I guess we'll agree to disagree. I will never train my dog to look at me when he is vulnerable and within reach of the "bad guy".

Why would you train a dog to focus on the handler in protection work?  I have an extremely focused dog, but the last person I want him watching is me during protection work or real street work.  

I will never train my dog to look at me when he is vulnerable and within reach of the "bad guy".

Thank you, Don. 

I want a real dog that is real in bite work.  A dog that keeps looking to the handler when the decoy is on the field and should be guarding usually has some issues or poor training.  My dog can heel, down, go out and call off and never needs to look at me.  My voice controls the dog, if he can hear why should he look at me?  Focus on me is for an obedience routine.  Focus during work or protection training is on the decoy.  Too much "sport" type focus on the handler is detrimental to a Police K9 or a PPD.  MY dog can have water poured on his face, his tail pulled in obedience and he will never lose focus on me, but again that is sport type obedience. It looks great and I love it but it is not practical.  Doing tactical obedience, he stays focused "down range" where potential threats are.  When moving tactically with the dog; I can down him and leave him.  I "beep" him to get his attention for a split second and give a hand signal, either to stay, engage or recall. 

To add to that point, if I am decoying for a police dog and it looks away from me it is a very big mistake.  The dog only needs to make that mistake once to learn a lesson.  Sport dogs and Police K9's can do a silent guard after outing, but the attention must be focused on the decoy or bad guy.  Looking away is not acceptable, IMHO.  During the bark and hold for sport dogs, the dog must guard actively and one bark is lackluster and looking away is a sign of problems.  It shows either poor training, too much pressure, handler dog issues or a temperament issue.  

JMO FWIW,

Jim

And even in the "sport" - any judge worth his/her salt will penalize the dog who looks away from the decoy, especially if he's looking for the handler or distracted as the handler approaches - with major loss of points for guarding "should be more attentive to the helper".  Absolutely - it is either poor training, or a nerve problem , if the dog looks away from the helper - he should be totally focused on the helper, even for sport.  For points, and because a dog that looks away should be "looked at" carefully for the reason, before considering him for breeding.

DON ... with respect .. i will disagree .. you so much underestimate your dog !! our dogs know more than you think ,and percieve as well  as they look toward us !!  f1. they are reading us as much as the situation / context .. do they not have abil;ity to anticipate our needs and thoughts ??  --2. do  you agree dogs are 90% nose .. they are detecting and gathering info --  just at the mere scent of someone.. they literally smell fear and other chemicals , when  emitted which gives them a tip off about people and their intentions.. your dog doesn't have to look at someone ! 2. they sense movement and position better than you can imagine all around themselves even looking at you  .. like a professional basketball player who just holds his hand outwards  and the dog knows how , what , where his opponents moves ... most can guard  thier opponents  with thier eyes wide shut !! 3. in all aspects .. the dog is to never to decide what to do .. unless you have trained a behavior to be automatic without a command and in that case .. your eyes and mouth should be enough ... COME ON now ...i shouldn't have to explain this to seasoned dog people.. YRES.. in dog sports the dog is penalized for looking away .. but not aslways ... case in point in ring , the dog is off leash /no collar .. if the dog breaks the departure line , he fails .. so in that cast i teach :  the dog never gets the "attack' cue .. unless it is fully locked on me ... AND the escort /guard is done with the dog walking in between my legs ..the dog can see me as he may glance at the helper/agitator - so even though they can get penalized for looking away .. where possible .. the dogs is centered on me .. but .. not all dog training is sport now -  is it ?? . just bercause there are rules in trials .. my commentary is aimed at :understanding and  knowing the canine . with empohasis on my previous post that a great dog eyes at times can be locked on to a handler ... without being deficient in work . [it's much much  harder for a dog to pay heed to it's handler when totally wound upin agitation  now.. isn't it !!].  BTW JIM /.. police and military work is a horse of a different color .. your points are valid in that respect and in THAT CONTEXT ..  i concur with your words...