The decline of the German Shepherd character - Page 27

Pete, those are mix breed dogs in knpv, and not considered a pure breed. You mean you don't remember suggesting bringing in a different breed to "eliminate HD "in the gsd? That was you who said that to "fix" a problem with "big changes" was self-promotional..... And matter of fact, pure bred gsds are doing knpv, no problem.

WHAT DECLINE 

look at the videos of famous oldtimers and tell me if they are any better than todays dogs

"Haz - It is clear from what I written about that I am not opposed to working dogs or the use of them in a breeding programme, perhaps you missed that. Also it did not take me very long to realize what was happening in the breed and I have never inbred any closed than 4,5 - 0,0. I have also worked, bred and trained dogs during my time in the breed, perhaps you missed that as well.

What this thread is about is very clear in the title - please read that bit again. The thread is about the breed as a whole including the breeding of working dogs. If you want to continue do you think that you can make worthwhile comments related to the thread.

As for the working dog side I am sure that even you will know that dogs are not born Sch H3, IPO 3 or any other qualification. The qualifications earned are put there by the trainers after the dog is born. What we are trying to discuss here is what breeders as a whole, whether their interest is working, breed or pet, is how we can breed better and healthier animals and the influences that control that. The topic is not about watching videos of dogs working, the subject of which is mainly related to bite work. These videos are completely unrelated to the topic.

In an earlier post you said “I will be looking for a tight line bred dog in the next few months male or female “. How tight is tight for you? Also whatever you buy has no guarantee to become a good working dog,

Mackenzie"

 

Hey thats great!  You don't oppose the GSD working!  I am glad you did a 4-5 it must have been scary.. :-).  My comments were simply that people who breed these dogs and have attitudes and a knowledge base similar to yours will continue to cause a decline in these dogs' workability.  I outlined why I think that.  I gave you an opportunity to prove that you had some clue when it comes to training or working a dog.  I even gave you a chance to show what dogs you have produced or bred to could do. 

You still seem to be confused about what these dogs should be bred for.  Ill answer the question for you..its WORK.  If they cannot, then however you justify it to yourself you are contributing to the problem. 

Your last post about "extreme aggression" in WLs and "SLs that dont kneel" made my point for me.  You don't know what your looking at when you watch a dog work. 

So how can you be breeding them??? 

 Im sure some of those working line dogs doing a bark and hold are extreme looking if you are not familiar with the exercise..

Nothing personal but this in my opinion is part of the answer to your original question.

 

Ibrahim, you seem like a nice guy and you love your SLs which is fine. 

Just one question, can you show me a picture of the early GSD that Stephanitz and his disciples were producing...and yes even showing.  What do they look like to you?

Another question, do you think the cream of the SL crop, which were seen in all their glory in the 2013 Kassel vids could make it over a palisade?  Or protect their handlers and if necessary engage and fight a man?  Search for hours over difficult terrain / weather for drugs or persons and have the drive to stay in the hunt until complete?

The answers to these questions will put this debate to sleep :).  Remember its not about the exceptions to the rule (I call them unicorns).  Its about what is the NORM.  There are and will always be exceptions, I am sure that there are a few Goldens or Labs that are quite capable of doing the tasks I listed above.  ;)

 

Fero was good for 92 points that day...
People either tend to forget or they simply don´t know and believe in tell tales instead.
Thanks for the vid, Duke, I have been in Munich that year, sleeping in the car ...
 

Haz I know we are talking hypothetically here, because no

one of us can possibly have seen or handled every dog at

the Sieger show in any given year.  But I think you might be

very surprised to find that there are many more 'unicorns'

than you think.

Given that here in the UK there are lots of first generation

dogs by German sires, out of British dams or german import dams

brought over in whelp, but also many 'germanic' dogs which are

two or three or more generations British bred,  and looking at

which  of them are destined for the Show ring;  which are 'worked'

(for the Show ring);  and which are Working dogs proper, ie Police,

RAF, and so on [not to even mention those used as

"seeing eye" etc], there is still a great deal of overlap between

supposedly 'SL' and 'WL'.  That is changing with more dogs from

the previously less accesible Eastern lines;  but it has never been

so 'polarised' as the difference has become in America between

WL and SL.

Having experienced, in reasonably large numbers over 45+ years,

what these dogs CAN do, and what they have agility, endurance,

nerve and character like,  I would feel safe in saying two things:

1.  many of the 'Showdogs' being maligned here are anything but

incapable nervebags;

2.  all lines and just about all litters contain dogs that can turn out

to be great or ghastly - and much of that is influenced as much by

handling and training as it is by genetics.

 

We should always beware of over-generalising !

HAZ good post that will go totally ignored by Mack and other geniuses that are not completely "oppossed to working dogs".

 

Handmutter

I sincerely doubt that the vast majority of those SLs would be anything but below average or that I would be surprised by their work ethic :).  I have trained with and observed Police K9s.  They are for the most part NOT what many of you think they are ;-). There are many that range from excellent to downright crappers.  Just as much variety as you will find in many sport clubs.

I have expressed what I think of the LE dog program in the UK before.  Its a personal opinion based on some observations but I stand by it :).

Show some video.  I can find thousands of clips of WLs doing the things I listed above.  How come its so hard to find vids of SLs doing decent work?  There are a few, but as I said earlier there are a few of offbreeds like Labs or Dobe's doing something so it underlines the trend that is being discussed.

PS:  I did not have to be at Kassel to tell you that those dogs were crappers..best one there was still a washout ;).  Were do you think most of the SLs around here come from?  Across the pond, many from VA dogs.  I see those genetics in training all the time from puppy to adult.  The norm is simply not acceptable for a workign dog..but anyone that works their dogs already knows that.

 

If I come across as harsh I apologize, it really is not my intention to offend..most of the time :-).   I prefer to be direct as communicating nuance through text is hard.  For the record my first dog was a SL, I was crushed when she passed and still remember her fondly.

 

 

in summary it is evident that due to decisions made some 30 odd years ago some lines of GSD are now in major trouble.

it is apparent that the people that benefitted the most financially from this era and profiited and presided over the decline are now reaching out for help from others that sacrificed the easy $ and maintained the ethic that characterises the breed in it's uncorrpupted form.

 

Haz, and all friends who own, train or breed work line GSDs

Do you think the work line GSD needs improvement? Whether in anatomy or temperament

If yes please mention in what areas

if no then please answer one more question for me,

Do you think specified anatomy proportions and angulations in the standard are wrong and useless for a working GSD?

sometimes you see workline in my view that are to heavy and over all to big .For me medium in weight and size makes a better dog .More agile less perssure on joints . Some for me are way to sharp and can not switch off hard to bring a dog like that to a park or any other everyday outing