The decline of the German Shepherd character - Page 23

If we all agree to the following basics, then we can move successfully to specify a solution for widening gene pool and improving the breed, temperament and structure wise

1. Split of breed was a step in the wrong direction

2. Specialty, one purpose, breeding is no good, whether it is for color, conformation or excessive drives

3. Show breeders should realize serious structure faults in the show dog, such as rear over angulation, weak hocks, loss of well defined withers, excessice topline sloping and roaches.

4. Show breeders should realize that the show dog declined in temperament and character strength, also instincts.

5. Work breeders should realize the work dog (in general) does not meet standard type and conformation

6. Work breeders should realize that they need to improve on their dog in terms of conformation and temperament (as Gustav said temperament can be negatively affected by excessive unbalanced drives).

7. Work breeders should realize that versatile dog is more than bite work ability.

If we agree to the above, then the only way to widen up the gene pool of the total breed without breeding to outside foreign breeds is to breed show and work together, when this is done smartly we can bring versatility and balance back to the whole breed. If work breeders keep insisting that the show dog is useless to them and they keep insisting on breeding what they like they will soon find their dog had lost desirable traits no less than the show dog. Same applies to show breeders of course.

The breed stemmed from various different types of dogs, later type and traits were set over the course of many years of hard work and insistence, nowaday we are in a much better status, we can strengthen traits and type through selecting from work and show dogs and breeding them together, I see no valid reason why not.

Ibrahim

i think the show breeders should just change the name of their dog to something else and go on their merry way.

or better yet keep the gsd name and let us change the name to something else.

you play yr games, we will play ours.

yours games will involve spectacularly dressed people feeling very self important and a bunch of dogs trotting on their hocks in a cirlce, ours will involve dogs smashing through walls and biting the living crap out of anything that moves, and if it doesn't move they will muzzle punch it into motion.

that sounds fair, just don't be sniffing around us when you need a dose of credibility.

problem solved.

SV will only change course when they see the public is not happy with the current status of the breed, as long as we are keeping silent and accepting with content the modifications to structure of the breed even though they do not compliment endurance, and breeders follow the trend blindly without second thought of the welfare of the dog nor its utility, and SV business keeps going up, they will never change course, business is fine and blooming, who is the stupid who will make a sharp turn !!!

Such discussions like this one do educate the public, that is why it is good and of benefit, my opinion.

Ibrahim

 Ibrahim - Excellent posts. Well written. As the original poster of the thread I appreciate your contribution here.  Many thanks.

Mackenzie

 You have some good points Ibrahim , but  can you explain   me what  the WL  need from the genes from  SL?

I understand the SL  need some genes from the WL IMO the SL and WL  never will be together as 1 GSD breed.

Too much egos in this world  and  $$$$$$$$$$ what for a lot of breeders  matters.

Ibrahim has already said how he thinks WL's could benefit from SL genetics.

Do you own GSD's Blackmalinois? 

Well, I will answer, it is a valid question and legitimate one, answer may not be direct but it will be in the context.

We have here a member by the name Duke, he expressed his opinion on linebreeding and genepool many times, what I will say is learned from him.

Solution might not be a single approach but rather a multi direction one. Why? because a question is unavoidable here, what happens to the genepool after some years of all breeders crossing work with show, won't the genepool be again limited and narrowed down after several generations? Won't we loose different strains to outcross to.

So best solution might be a three simultaneous approaches, but all should be based on what Gustace stated above. ((But the biggest problem that breeders of today have regardless of the formula, is breeding for what they LIKE as opposed to breeding for what is best to maintain balance and vitality. Breeding for what you like, is speciality breeding, and although may enhance specific traits, it inadvertly leads to extremes and a decline in temperament and instincts. ( Temperament is not drives as you can have extreme drives also which lead to decrease in temperament and instincts)). 

1. A group chooses to cross show with work bearing in mind Gustave Code and Mac technique of closely observing inbreeding coefficient.

2, A group chooses to select and breed the best of showline based on Gustave Code and Mac technique.

3. A group chooses to select and breed the best of work line based on Gustav Code and Mac technique.

This way we stop breeding what we like but what ads to breed stability and versatility. We keep various bloodlines at a space to outcross when necessary. So people like BlackMalinois who see no use for them in show dog can still breed for total GSD, conformation + temperament + work ability + versatlity from within the work bloodline.

I would choose to be in 1st group myself as I think it is what will pay good results for the total breed, it will benefit the show dog mostly which makes up the bigger population of the breed.

To try to answer your question more directly, the show is closer to standard in type, looks and conformation. The show has same good qualities of the work dog in regards to traits and instincts, when I say breed show to work I mean a very good specimen from the show to another from the work, if I heard Susie and many others of value in GSD experience, good strong show dogs are still there.

Ibrahim

Vk, exactly how does this post you wrote add anything positive to this discussion? You continue to sully EVERY single thread on this forum in one way or another. Is it asking too much to expect you to grow up and act like an adult and try to contribute something positive now and then instead of interrupting every single thread with your smart ass remarks?

 think the show breeders should just change the name of their dog to something else and go on their merry way.

or better yet keep the gsd name and let us change the name to something else.

you play yr games, we will play ours.

yours games will involve spectacularly dressed people feeling very self important and a bunch of dogs trotting on their hocks in a cirlce, ours will involve dogs smashing through walls and biting the living crap out of anything that moves, and if it doesn't move they will muzzle punch it into motion.

that sounds fair, just don't be sniffing around us when you need a dose of credibility.

problem solved.

There is one more point, maybe if I can not express it intelligently Blitzen can reshape it for me.

We are talking about the breed, all the breed, not a single purpose GSD. My understanding is GSD should not be fearful, should have solid nerves, conforms to specifics of anatomy conformation, should be able to do various jobs. My understanding is a GSD should be able to settle down at home after a long day of work, lay down and rest, be acceptavle of family members, young and adults, should be able to remain ok and acceptable of a few days rest when necessary, should be manageable by its owner, and owner here is a simple person, not necessarily a professional trainer or handler.

That is the breed, not a crazy driven dog that only can be utilized by a owner with extra capabilities. Our breed should provide us with good companions, good pets, good for Police, good for sport, good for SAR etc, and not limited to only one of them.

If that is true, then show GSD can add much to a total balanced and versatile GSD when bred smartly to a work line or even to a good show line.

wow 30 pages of debate, insult, and constructive critism. If all breeders gave time to devolope their dogs in some type of work, the breed would benefit. Raising that 8 week old show dog to find a ball hidden anywhere would make it easier to sell/place him when it reveals it is not a ''world class champion''. Teaching the working line dog a few behavoirs outside of the box or IPO test would make him a canidate for LE when it is found his grips are not perfect and he will not stand at the top of the podium at the WUSV. If peer pressure of all GSD owners was for a complete dog, we could move forward. I started this quest almost 40 years ago and I think there are more LE dogs now than ever. That indicates to me the demand is there. Do we have the will to make a supply?