Hock walker? - Page 23

An effortless gait is certainly not the only thing needed by a tending dog, but without it I have to question how much being able to turn on a dime will really matter.

Abby, Great article and one that we all should take to heart. I have seen some indication that the SV has improved somewhat since this article was written. I do not see the angulations getting more extreme, the tide has changed a little. I also believe the time is right for working lines to return to the ring. Their very presence will demand attention and go far in correcting some of what was written about.
     As an aside, my V rated sable bitch can turn on a dime.

I believe Lyons also said that, in addition to increasing the angulation, there are only 2 other ways to breed a dog that covers more ground, increase body length or shorten the legs.

Already mentioned in the original standard during Max's time, "The length of the body should exceed the shoulder height of the dog.  Short-coupled and long-legged dogs should be discarded."  But there is NO MENTION of "ground covering".

Show breeding for more extreme angulations caused problems with reach on square or taller dogs, and so longer body lengths curtailed that.  A wild wolf would have less endurance and efficiency with that kind of angulation as well.

I wasn't referring to V-rated structure.

Wild wolves show a range of conformation, many appear to have a longer leg to body ratio than a GSD. Most appear to have a straight back, some appear to even have a roach. The fronts are definitely not like a Malinois or an ill bred GSD with no front but more like a properly angled working line or conformation dog. Some pictures show wolves with long, sloping croups.

Molly and Jack,
    I really appreciated your comments and do agree with your posts, an over angulated dog will not easily turn on a dime.

Thanks, Markobytes. I just wanted to make it clear that I don't really have a concern about V-rated structure ;-)

Blitzen I have never heard that, but of course being in the UK, we hear little of what is happening in the US, other than what is heard here. What an extraordinarily enlighted approach. Is this to discourage from breeding extremes of angulation?

I am guessing from what you say about those trying to return to a more moderate utilitarian breed that this would be the case.

I have in the past been ridiculed for championing moderation or middle of the road (and no doubt will be again!), as those people sneer that moderate is just settling for 'average' and I am sure that view may well apply from both sides of the fence, who wish not to lose anything from their present conformation. If both those sides met in the middle well.....as you say - not in our lifetimes. Maybe it should be a 3 way split. Show, work and universal GSD.

Markobytes, yes it is an interesting article, but I wish I could remember when the lecture took place. It has to be around 8 years ago, and I do think angulation has got worse since then, or at least I honestly do not see that any progress has been made to improve it, despite the SV only last year I believe mentioning it again as a cause for concern, and in this article the same problem was raised by the SV president in his annual report in 2002, as were back problems. So 10 years has passed and I really see no change in the deep overangulation from then to now. 

 

Abby, I believe the intent is to encourage breeding a more moderate dog and to encourage judges to instruct handlers to "move your dog at a moderate speed, no racing around the ring". It is possible to finish a moderate dog in the AKC ring and a few are doing well as specials. Most AKC  judges want to see a dog that does not "lift", it has to keep its feet close to the ground when moving out. Personally I think that's a good thing as that should eliminate dogs that overreach and/or crab due to too much angulation on either or both ends.

If it were easy to breed good GSD's there would be more good ones . IMO this is a very challenging breed given there are so many expectations and so many different opinions on what a good GSD looks like. I sometimes cringe at photos I see here and on other breed boards but someone out there thinks they are great or they wouldn't be showing the world their photos. Personally I get hung up on those big bulky heads and overdone bodies, but many really like that and most of the big winners in Germany seem to look that way.

I am fully cognizant that dialogue from me is not going to change the views of people invested in what they write. And that's Okay, I primarily write for many who lurk out there and may want to get into the breed or crave more knowledge. I am a big believer that for the next generation of GS folks, they have the intelligence to assess what they see and figure out where reality deviates from theory out in the real world. As they go to events, shows, see real working dogs, talk to trainers, see for themselves...they will find what they see in general that resonates with what is written on these boards. These people are the future, and we have to give them the information and examples for them to decide how they want to proceed for this breed. I must say that I have utmost respect for Markobytes, Abbey Normal, and Ibrahim, in terms of their insights. All of you have made we reexamine some of my foundation thinking as we never grow to old to learn. In particular I really have admiration for Abbey Normal who, IMO, has often made much more sense than many of his country folks no matter hold loud and caustic they are.
People like Blitzen and Sunsilver, go back to the same foundation likes as i have. Times have changed, I haven't, not saying that's good or bad, but I know that some things improve with time and hopefully that holds true for this breed.