Hock walker? - Page 22

Markobytes, Gustav would be a formidable JEOPARDY opponent as he is always spot on, "hits the button" first , and generally leaves nothing unsaid :):) Thank you for your kind words.

Sunsilver,
          Your point is well taken on the legs during the drive, I have noticed it also. I also have seen VAs be able to keep thier feet under them and not have this problem. Great picture, kind of reminds me of when I was on my roof long ago and turned around to see my female ASL had joined me by climbing a 24 foot ladder. I do think a VA structure would suit it for herding. 
 Joanro,
 I agree with you, you would have to get up pretty early in the morning in order to pull one over on Gustav!

I have an ASL x GSL, not a hockwalker, absolutely flat backed, angulation and side gait about what I see at SV shows in the dogs that place well. She earned her AD a few months ago trialing with GSL's, WL's, Rotties and a Mali.  She was the only AKC CH entered in the trial - that's nothing new. At the end of each 3 mile run she was first in, first ready to go out again, never laid down, and was barely breathing hard in the FL heat. I'm not going to be stupid again and start another argument, so I'm not going to mention the conformation of the GSD's that finished in the worse shape overall . 

I  think more angulation and a big side gait is a plus in some events as it allows a dog to cover a lot more ground by expending a lot less energy with every step than shorter gaited dogs. For every step my dog took, most of the other dogs had to take at least 2. As an interesting sidebar, the dogs that fared the worst were the Rotties. One couldn't finish the 2nd round and the other 3 qualified but were way, way behind the rest of the pack and they need to rest a lot longer than the other breeds.  If a bigger side gait is a plus for protection work, I do not know. For herding tending, little doubt it would be.

I believe Lyons also said that, in addition to increasing the angulation, there are only 2 other ways to breed a dog that covers more ground, increase body length or shorten the legs. He also said that the GSD was the only breed that could move with a susended gait. When stop action photography became available, that was disproven; it was learned that most dogs of most breeds suspend. In the GSD it is more evident.

There will always be GSD's that are so structurally unsound they will make one's eyes water, but still they have the heart to make great dogs. They will title with good scores and may even end up winning some very important competition due to heart and skilled training and handling.   However, they will never obtain a breed survey. Cart before the horse? Horse before the cart? I dunno..... 

Anecdotally Markobytes, my herding instructor has worked with both ASL and WGSL and said that both lines had trouble changing direction quickly and pivoting. This is only one instructor's opinion, however. She commented favorably on my WL dog's structure and said it was more suited for herding work. We are training in course C - tending.

How many "modern" WL's could do that too, Sunsilver?

Who is responsible for breed surveys? The Captain, the SV, who? Why were they inititated in the first place?

Collies  and BC's do a better job of changing directions that do GSD's. They move much closer behind than GSD's and most are cowhocked when standing naturally.

That's true about collies and BCs changing direction better...but even tending breeds need to be able to get out of the way of their own rear ends. My point in replying to Markobyte's comment about VA structure and herding was that success in the breed-appropriate tending style has more physical demands than just an effortless trot. If VA structure improves a dog's ability to perform these other tasks as well, then so be it...

Ibrahim
There is a part of me that feels that you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
 
If we were able to select a dog that had optimum structure that would allow a dog to have the necessary athleticism, strength and endurance to properly work in any discipline be it shepherding, police work, tracking, SAR, therapy (fill in your desired role), yet easily settle to be a good companion as and when required, and have an excellent conformation I think you would find a dog not too dissimilar to those such as Mutz, a representative of the universal GSD as was before the split.  I think some of the present structure would have to be sacrificed.
 
I was looking for a link to an article I read many years ago, but I can’t remember who wrote it and couldn’t find it, but I did find this statement, so you may not be so surprised that a GSD ‘fan’ said such a heretical thing about the flying gait as I did, when Eric Orschler of Von Batu Kennels and SV Breed Judge & Koermeister said something much more contentious about the flying gait! So maybe I am not so crazy after all Ibrahim!!
 
Quote by Eric Orschler of Von Batu Kennels and SV Breed Judge & Koermeister:
“The fast, so-called 'flying gait' which is for example, shown at the Siegerschau at the end phase, is in fact unnatural. Unless with the influence of his handler, no dog will show this gait in nature. In no area of work is this type of gait with its extreme length of stride required or used. The question then arises whether this gait should be judged at all. Could it be that this 'fast round' has been made faster and faster by our top dog handlers and that our judges have accepted this? It is interesting to note that no other breed has this gaiting test. Nevertheless, a justification for this 'round', quite apart from its spectacular presentation, can be found in the fact that the dog's condition, endurance and resilience can be tested one more time.
 
V. Stephanitz recognized early on that a correct assessment of movement could really only be done on a dog moving freely in nature. He also knew that with the quantity of dogs presented at a show, that this was not possible. However, as a matter of self-education, each dog owner should calmly and occasionally do just this”
 
Here is a link to an article by Peter van Oirschot who was for many years Supervisor of Breed Affairs S.V Netherlands. He passed away a couple of years ago. These are notes from a lecture that he gave to the GSD League of Great Britain years and years ago, and it is an interesting read. Surprising how little has changed except that angulation has become more extreme, and some problems are more prevalent now, as the 'more is better' situation played out pretty much as predicted.
http://www.precisiongermanshepherds.ca/ModernGSD.html
 

As I've said here before, the GSDCA  judge's ed committee is pushing for presenters to stop promoting the flying trot. Some judges do understand that is it not correct for the breed, but many still think it's correct. In a recent issue of "The Review" an AKC breeder-judge used a side gait photo of his AKC pointed GSL import with the caption "showing the correct flying trot"  He added the comment that some judges do not recognize it as the the correct GSD gait.

As you can see, it's an uphill battle for those who are giving it their all to try to return the breed to a moderate utilitarian breed. I have no expectations of ever seeing that happen in my lifetime.