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by OGBS on 28 December 2010 - 06:12
You forgot Archie.
by duke1965 on 28 December 2010 - 07:12
daryll , since most of the workingdogbreeders back than ran to fado and fero and his offspring , it is hard to put down a list of dogs with you name it what , without the same names behind them
a list of crappy dogs have the same ancesters , a list of dogs with one testical , weak ears you name it
all simply because most dogs around have fado or fero on the pedigree
better to look at a dogs parents and grandparents , and what those breeders did , to breed these dogs
breedingchoices are made today and tomorrow , with todays dogs , fero and fado are not direct influence anymore , unless strongly linebred on
a list of crappy dogs have the same ancesters , a list of dogs with one testical , weak ears you name it
all simply because most dogs around have fado or fero on the pedigree
better to look at a dogs parents and grandparents , and what those breeders did , to breed these dogs
breedingchoices are made today and tomorrow , with todays dogs , fero and fado are not direct influence anymore , unless strongly linebred on
by Jeff Oehlsen on 28 December 2010 - 07:12
Quote:
a list of crappy dogs have the same ancesters , a list of dogs with one testical , weak ears you name it
But out of how many breedings ? Most people are happy if they get 3 solid working dogs out of a litter of 8. That leaves 5 that are various levels of ability.
Even if you were to say half of every litter will produce solid working dogs, you still have 4 left over. Out of fado and fero, what was the deal with the rest of the litter ?
I know people that have very nice dogs that could have done the work, and very possibly done the work really really well, but never did anything with the dog for whatever reason. How does anyone factor that in when you are dealing with dogs that are born overseas ? That is a really tough thing about going through a pedigree. If you can get the information, then you are a step ahead, which they obviously are.
That is why I would love to see people talking about a dog in their club, or dogs from a same litter out of their club here, and not so much some dog from overseas. Hard to get done sometimes.
a list of crappy dogs have the same ancesters , a list of dogs with one testical , weak ears you name it
But out of how many breedings ? Most people are happy if they get 3 solid working dogs out of a litter of 8. That leaves 5 that are various levels of ability.
Even if you were to say half of every litter will produce solid working dogs, you still have 4 left over. Out of fado and fero, what was the deal with the rest of the litter ?
I know people that have very nice dogs that could have done the work, and very possibly done the work really really well, but never did anything with the dog for whatever reason. How does anyone factor that in when you are dealing with dogs that are born overseas ? That is a really tough thing about going through a pedigree. If you can get the information, then you are a step ahead, which they obviously are.
That is why I would love to see people talking about a dog in their club, or dogs from a same litter out of their club here, and not so much some dog from overseas. Hard to get done sometimes.
by darylehret on 28 December 2010 - 11:12
duke, I believe that's the angle where "shouldn't put too much emphasis on the pedigree" comes in. But how many great dogs came out of a listfull of nobody's? That's my point.
by darylehret on 28 December 2010 - 12:12
In the future, today's most overbred dog (Bomber) is going to have alot of "crap" out there as well. You just can't breed such an overwhelming number of females and expect not to have produced more faults than the stud himself is capable of passing on.
by Bob McKown on 28 December 2010 - 12:12
In the end there is no "best new stud" because of the subjectivity of dogs and breeding. The stud is only as good as the female breed to him. It takes two to tango even in the dog world. We all have our likes and dislikes of the breed and will breed accordingly to our needs and perceptions.
25 x Sch 3 does nothing for me. It,s a marketing ploy done well by some. It all comes down to the dog and what your breeding for. Titles are good they show the dogs trainablity but there again a good trainer can cover faults off the dog to a percentage. It comes down to what you perceive as a good stud dog.
25 x Sch 3 does nothing for me. It,s a marketing ploy done well by some. It all comes down to the dog and what your breeding for. Titles are good they show the dogs trainablity but there again a good trainer can cover faults off the dog to a percentage. It comes down to what you perceive as a good stud dog.
by darylehret on 28 December 2010 - 13:12
As infered to earlier in the thread, a stud who's produced progeny that are coming into their own reputation is a good reflection on himself. Orry has done nicely, with offspring Erri and Lord. The saying that, if you like the dog, then go to his sire comes to mind. But also, some producers have done particularly well through their female offspring also, such as Kaso zPS. So, through the dam, the maternal grandsire deserves attention also. Certain combinations of sire/maternal grandsire "nick" together nicely, for example Nick over Yoschy. Certain dams have produced multiple top performers when bred to various quality studs, although their careers pass so quickly.
by duke1965 on 28 December 2010 - 13:12
many good dogs come from lesser known dogs , , the only reason they are harder to find is that these lesser known dogs breed only a few bitches , the marketing machine is behind the names , thats were the money is
in dogworld you have two type of breeders , there are leaders and there are followers
there is few leaders , most of them in it for money , and the followers , well you can figure that one out yourself
in dogworld you have two type of breeders , there are leaders and there are followers
there is few leaders , most of them in it for money , and the followers , well you can figure that one out yourself
by nanu on 28 December 2010 - 14:12
Potential puppy buyers - you may not think that titles are important but you are selling yourself short. Titles (and the work involved with getting titles) prove the dog is breedworthy. Yes, there are titled dogs that are not breedworthy - and I'm sure there are untitled dogs that are breedworthy - but I say PROVE IT by working the dog to titles. The work (and legitimate titles) prove the dog itself.
Above quote by Molly
Let's keep this a civilized discussion and so my civilized discussion on the above comment ,
IN THE US, it is extremely difficult to title dogs unless you live locally to a good club. IN THE U.S. production of working police dogs means little?
As one of the few owners who has had two dogs in one year compete at USA nationals, dogs do well in other USA nationals and qualifiers, etc. much money spent and dogs titled, I've payed my dues in time, titles and literally fees. With that, I believe in the U.S. there are some very good untitled dogs worthwhile to breed that only get a notice in their local circles. Maybe only a Sch1 and so goes unnoticed too.
And those dogs deserve a real look.. I also believe in keeping the gene pool very very wide.
YET, all that said, there must be some measure of " quality dog and breedability" Even with titled dogs as we might see if we lived in Europe, the wide spectrum from complete showline to hard edge workingline, all "breed worthy" is a measure of the "titling system" but is there anything else that makes sense too? So back to the question: Best New Stud - is it coming up and could be titled ?
Ahh, now I have started a discussion! And I leave the forum and go back to work.
Enjoy!
Nancy Rhynard
www.westwoodkennels.com
Above quote by Molly
Let's keep this a civilized discussion and so my civilized discussion on the above comment ,
IN THE US, it is extremely difficult to title dogs unless you live locally to a good club. IN THE U.S. production of working police dogs means little?
As one of the few owners who has had two dogs in one year compete at USA nationals, dogs do well in other USA nationals and qualifiers, etc. much money spent and dogs titled, I've payed my dues in time, titles and literally fees. With that, I believe in the U.S. there are some very good untitled dogs worthwhile to breed that only get a notice in their local circles. Maybe only a Sch1 and so goes unnoticed too.
And those dogs deserve a real look.. I also believe in keeping the gene pool very very wide.
YET, all that said, there must be some measure of " quality dog and breedability" Even with titled dogs as we might see if we lived in Europe, the wide spectrum from complete showline to hard edge workingline, all "breed worthy" is a measure of the "titling system" but is there anything else that makes sense too? So back to the question: Best New Stud - is it coming up and could be titled ?
Ahh, now I have started a discussion! And I leave the forum and go back to work.
Enjoy!
Nancy Rhynard
www.westwoodkennels.com
by Gustav on 28 December 2010 - 15:12
The last posts form Bob, Nan, Daryll, Duke, and Jeff really bring some productive discussion to the table, IMO. Please keep it up!!
I think within the knowledgable dog circles there is an awareness of the dogs that "are" and the dogs that are "made". The dogs that are made are often very highly decorated, but will not replicate the accomplishments in offspring. The dogs that "are" are recognized when seen and by word of mouth regardless of the titles or persons whom own them. The problem is only the informed will know the difference because many people rely on pedigrees or titles or performance alone to verify a dog. I honestly believe there are created dogs; and dogs that create. For stud purposes, I look for dogs that throw themselves and not their training.
I think within the knowledgable dog circles there is an awareness of the dogs that "are" and the dogs that are "made". The dogs that are made are often very highly decorated, but will not replicate the accomplishments in offspring. The dogs that "are" are recognized when seen and by word of mouth regardless of the titles or persons whom own them. The problem is only the informed will know the difference because many people rely on pedigrees or titles or performance alone to verify a dog. I honestly believe there are created dogs; and dogs that create. For stud purposes, I look for dogs that throw themselves and not their training.
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