Where are Old style lines in America still available? - Page 21

Hired dog; The 64,000 dollar question. Why do breeders make a move in ''type'' which moves away from the standard. 1] folly of the fancy. 2] to be compeitive with what is winning 3] make a buck by having the ''current hot'' lines 4] their mentor told them this was the best lines when he/she sold them their stock. 5] never took a journey into the ''total dog'' or got out of a comfort zone.                None of the above are ''good reasons'' to not follow and study the standard. 

Sun....I LOVE the look of Masko!!

Is he considered a west german showline?

It is funny how the ASL and GSL dogs look SOOOOOOO different throughout the ages when you compare them to themselves!!!

Likewise, I think some of the working line german shepherds have lost a little type in the pursuit of sport. I have seen some on the field that look like mals. But, I think the "pretty" working line dogs are the closest to the original breed standard than any other line.  I think some of those V rated working line dogs are true breed type. Like the studs at Alpine K9. I don't know anything about them but they have pretty dogs.

Can you guys PM me about your experience working with Alpine K9? All conversations will be kept confidential.

Thanks,
Sarah Minsk



 

my orginal mentors in dogs were show dog people, but not GSD. My mentor told me you will see 90% new people every 5 years. He was right. There is little education away from show rings or preformance events. I have been to many seminars for Police k9 over the years and see mostly first time handlers at these seminars learning basic training. The best of the police k9 get promoted out of the unit and take their learned skills and knowledge with them. My opinion is an organization which promotes training for a breed offers the most to the breed. Motivated breeders/trainers might go on tangents but the organization must keep the direction of the dog going right. No easy task when the politians are 5 years into their quest.

GSD student.....I agree completely! 

I had joined a local GSD club and a forum that was all ASL. All the ASL community(the show people) cares about right now is motion. I don't know if it has always been that way. But, I have talked privately to several serious, successful, well respected long time breeders who have offered to mentor me. What I have learned is this.....just because someone is considered successful doesn't mean they breed to standard. Why would I want to be mentored by people who have sold out and admit that side gait is the most important thing "right now". To me, no ONE trait in a GSD should ever be the focus point. I would rather see moderation in everything that any one extreme.  Likewise, sport people are breeding for such a high drive that the dogs are borderline spaz jobs in my newbie view.

So, I have a lot to learn. I admit that. But, everyone has to start somewhere. What I do know is I need to find a mentor that believes in the original breed standard and does not sell out for fads or fancy. Just because someone is a long time breeder does not mean they share my same philosophy of having a balanced, moderate dog who is versatile. 

Ok, I will say it..go ahead and laugh at me.......I want to breed a dog that can be an AKC Champion and also hold a breed survey and a PAM. I think every single breeding GSD should be tested for herding ability. I think ALL breeders should periodically try to title a dog from their program in herding to see where they are at. Form follows function. So, how can we know if our form is still correct if we are not asking our dogs to do what they were bred to do. 

One breeder of current day has accomplished my goal. The dog had slipped my mind when I had started this discussion and Xeph reminded me:http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=548068-nocturnes-navigator

 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and so is the breed standard. What I think is correct, others here may not agree with and vice versa. Not picking on Sunsilver, but IMO, other that color and markings, Jim and Marko look nothing alike. Different toplines, croup angles, different rears and very different fronts and lenth of upper arms, coats are not even the same texture and length. Evidentally Sunsilver sees that otherwise; so who is right and who is wrong? Is there a right or a wrong or is it a matter of interpretion? Unless one is comparing extreme dogs, it's not very likely that there is going to be a lot of agreement on which dogs are more correct per the breed standard than the other. Factor in the typical GWL and Czech WL and that adds even more drama to the discussion. Anyone can pick out any dog on this pedigree base and make up a critique that would make it sound like a Sieger.

Then there are the breeders who breed for their version of a performance or working dog, a dog that can get it done (whatever "It" means to them). They don't really care much if that dog is east and west  or cowhcoked or whatever as long as he or she can take down the bad guy, eat strangers, leap tall buildings in a single bound, earn a UD, an IPO, etc.. So is that following the breed standard?

It's not just one faction of this breed that is bringing it down, it's a combination of all. Don't sit in you comfortable little circle of like minded breeders patting each other on the backs for jobs well done condemning those who don't breed your style/type of GSD. Every line has its shit dogs, the sooner that's recognized, the better it will be for the breed. No one breeder is a god who could save them all. Ironically most who dump on the SL's/WL's/Czech dogs whatever have probably never even seen one in the ring or at a trail. We just know they have to be bad because that's the path of least resistance and requires no real research. Plus we read that on the PDB so it has to be true, right?
 

Smiley; please take this as advice and not critisim. What impresses you about this dog? Is it the amount of letters and numbers before and after the name? It is a mix-mass of ASL and WGSL. Have you seen offspring from her? Do not let the alphabet soup confuse you. Get involved, touch the dog, watch the dog, know the people. Then fall in love.

I'm not laughing, Smiley. It a wonderful goal IMO, but it takes a very long time and many generations to get there. Pedigrees are good tools,  but they can be taken too far back. After 5 generations those dogs have very little influence on the current generation. The dog in the 5th generation only contibutes 6.25% to the gene pool and given the stigma placed on linebreeding  in this breed it's unlikey that you are going to see the same dog in a 4 generation pedigree.  Maybe Sky's breeder could recommend a stud for her? Good luck!

You see, Smiley, this is why I don't put my dogs or dogs like Gator on any discussion on the board. He's sired by an AKC CH so he can't be worthwhile. His accomplishments don't count because of his pedigree. They are alphabet soup and not earned titles.

Student, if you get to FL or IN some time, call Helen Gleason, She'll be happy to introduce you to Gator so you judge for yourself why she made that breeding. I've seen him often, have one of his daughters that I'm not going to talk about here. Been down that road here, won't go again. And what GSD pedigree isn't a mismash of lines? The few that aren't get condemned too.

GSD.....I think no dog is perfect. All dogs have faults and you just try to match up complimentary animals in breeding. But, it's hard to knock a dog that has shown such versatility, breed type, and working ability. He went to the AKC show ring and was successful. He went to the SV breed ring and was successful. He went to the AKC performance ring and was successful. He went to the IPO field and was successful. He has proven a successful sire and even has guide dogs. He is from a successful breeder that has emphasized form to function and beauty and working ability existing together. GSD student...what is not too like about that!!!!!! I would take that any day of the week compared to the majority of stud dogs I see out there. So, out of curiousity...what don't you like about the dog, owing to the fact that no dog will be perfect or the absolute ideal conformation wise?

As a side note...his breeder is a judge and has awarded BOB Majors to German dogs showing in AKC ring to try to bridge the gap between the GSD worlds. She seems to pick the best dog in ring regardless of bloodlines.