Breeding without titles... open discussion, not an argument - Page 20

Realbitee, good example of the Australian breeders I speak of, they copy articles from someone else to justlfy their breeding concepts and advertise the supply of pups for Schutzhund, yet none are titled, so how do they know what traits are required to excel in sport when they have never trained or worked one to that level? It's not hard to sell average dogs to the police if they are cheap enough and security dog's performance lays in the eyes of the beholder, so what's really on offer here other than the mating of a working line male and female???. 

Quote: My untitled Dog My NON breed surved Dog has just as much right to be bred from as your dog who has worked and got its breed survey has,
Can any one tell me how the dog with nothing in its portfolio has the right to breed Puppies in the HOPE of BETTERING THE BREED, That to me is bullshit, and in all honesty the ones who do nothing with there dogs before breeding from them in most cases do not even get them Joint Tested officially, there are a few on here wou think that way.

Bettering the breed is rather goofy to begin with. I do not know anyone personally in the GSD breed that has better dogs than what they started with. Here in the states, most cannot better the breed, as they didn't have strong enough dogs to start with. You can see it everywhere, as they have brought in "Bob of blank" the famous son of what ever. 

Why ? Why is Bob of blank being brought in ? They breed survey all their dogs, couldn't be anything wrong there, right ? The health test all their dog, so what is wrong ? LOL Bob of blank coming in every few years shows people like me that what they are doing is not working. The dogs they are producing are not getting better, so here comes Bob, who saves the kennel, and there is renewed interest in their breeding program and of course, more money. It has been this way for a long long time.

I wish that people could see what was in front of them. Here in the states, we have temperament testers that know fuck all about a dogs behavior. I have had them come to me on a visit, and they see the work that we are doing, and have missed the point entirely. We have breeders that say and do the meanest fucking things they can to other people breeding, and all because the other breeder doesn't do things the way that THEY want them to do. These are the same people that have to bring in Bob the blank every few years

A famous German breeder showed up on another forum I am on, and was asking where all the dogs we have imported have gone. No one had any answers. He, like you and others cannot understand with the blood that we have brought in for 30 years how we cannot still be buying dogs from EU. There are breeders that would never NEVER allow this breeder or that breeder to use their Bob the blank, as they just cannot "deal" with how the other breeder breeds his/her dogs. I have had people get a little miffed because I do not care what their breeding program is. It is theirs, not mine, and they can use the dog.

The NVBK program I think works better because the people know who the dogs are, and do not allow weaker dogs. THey can actually read dogs. We are missing that. A Sch title here could just be handed out on some of the dogs I have seen. What would be the difference ? People take advantage.

you are so right there jeff , but many people refuse to see the big picture

do pups from titled parents guarantee to be healthier , have no bad hips or elbows
do pups from titled parents guarantee workingquality

Duke1965, breeding from titled parents doesn't prove what you are saying either I agree, but what breeding from untitled parents proves is that nothing has been tested to determine breed suitability, so how it is more likely to a aquire a better pup out of untested parents in the big picture over a pup from parents who have been tested is beyond me???

im saying its not more likely one way or the other

im not saying breed the crap out of untitled dogs either , but dont see the extra value of titles in breeding , training and titling is done by man , not genetics and even if you have two good dogs that dont make a good match , their titles wont make up for the bad match  made

so I think the most important is the ability of the breeder to match the right dogs together , titled or not , to produce quality
as far as the health department goes , im all for testing hips spine ,elbows etc , but also there Im not for the SV system to give all passing dogs an A stamp , thats also a form of false security , as many will think a dog with A stamp has perfect hips

so if you believe a titled dog with A stamp will allways produce better offspring than nontitled dog with A hips but not from SV , you fall for the trap they are setting

Quote:  but what breeding from untitled parents proves is that nothing has been tested to determine breed suitability, so how it is more likely to a aquire a better pup out of untested parents in the big picture over a pup from parents who have been tested is beyond me???

I think that most people can see that titles are not proof that the dog should be bred. If you do not know if your dog is breed quality in the first year of working him, then neuter him. People cannot see that, the dog needs time, his line doesn't mature till they are 17, all bullshit.

Titles and breed surveys "in theory" should be the way to go.

I bred Esko, and got to hear about breeding an untitled dog, as if he was not trained. He is doing well on his ring three routine, but God forbid you don't wait till he HAS the title. I say people that doubt should put on the suit and let him make you cry in the bite work. 

Why is always the same 2 people craping on the threads and deviating them with personal b.s. and rivalities. It gets old! Seriously, " I've been training dogs for 200 years, here in Europe.... blah blah blah... and then the other one here in the states same s**t. That's why people is migrating from this forum... do u people really think anybody gives crap about who "wins" I'm here personally because I can learn interesting stuff about gsds, but when facts are replaced with nasty subjective comments, that interrupts my learning experience, so I feel compelled to speak up. Precious time u could be using working ur dogs. Note: I'm not gonna comment/elaborate any further on this.

People are migrating from this forum because people like you that do not contribute write crap like you just wrote. What has that to do with anything about what the topic is ?? What is the matter, we didn't entertain you enough ? We didn't give you enough free information ? 

What is it that you have to offer Martin ?? 

Everyone preaches tolerance tolerance, but you know what ? Where you find the good stuff is in the words written that you want to have disappear. You are not going to get this in the "look how pretty my dog/pups are thread. 

I want to hear others opinions, and I am not a child that has to have it laid out in a nice concise manner, carefully edited to take out non PC items. I want to hear Steve1's opinions, and I could care less if they are the same as mine. I want to hear Duke's opinions, and I don't care if he is not putting it in a context that I want to hear it in. 

I want to hear the passion they have, and I do not need it in a nice curse free package. Grow up Martin, these are grown adults and they have passion about the breed so it is not going to be written how you want it. Sitting at home getting free information, learning about who these people are, and how this shit MEANS something to them, and all you can do is complain. Not even about the system, not about breeding practices, just about the people that are communicating their thoughts.

It is not just you that I am aiming at with this Martin. But enough already. Show your passion by stating your point, putting your thoughts and ideas out there, and realizing that not everyone is going to have the same opinion, but you can argue your point, and have fun, learning who these other people are.

With ALL DUE RESPECT to all contributers on this 'thread'; it is very interesting to see how we can all get twisted up - even those with some and/or even VERY MUCH experience working/breeding this breed over this topic!!

My humble opinion is that rules and regulations - if you like guideLINES - are put in place so that people who are finding their way have something to...well GUIDE and REGULATE them through...SO they DON'T GO WAY OFF the track in the LEARNING PROCESS!!!

These 'rules/regulations and guidelines' are thought of by people who have been involved FOR GENERATIONS with this breed and if NOTHING ELSE HAVE A RIGHT TO DO SO!!!

Now in the same way we in society have to do with SO MANY RULES/REGULATIONS and GUIDELINES set ON US by people we VOTE IN to GOVERN US!!!

This APPLIES to whether you are a law abiding citizen or a FULL BLOWN TERRORIST!!!

Why is that we have to have laws in our life??...surely NOT for the guy who never leaves his house, never drinks and drives, hasn't even given reason for a parking ticket let alone go into some towering and crowded school/stock brockers office with an AK47 and blow rounds off for FUN...SURELY NOT for the forementioned I say!!!

BUT, we ALL have to go by these laws!!! NO matter where we are, there are RULES/REGULATIONS-GUIDELINES and we get booked and penalized for breaking them no matter what our knowledge of the law is!!!

It therefore make absolute sence, that in the GSD there is the SV/WUSV who set these RULES/REGULATIONS-GUIDELINES  if people don't see the reason i

...those who chose to be outside of these, in their wisdom, of course are FREE to do so (since we live in a FREE World), but its sencless trying to convince the INVENTORS OF THE BREED, that they are on the WRONG path and doing so WITHOUT at leat 30 generations of PROOF that the 'other formulas' are better for the betterment of the breed...and that the TRUE Breed SURVEY is NOT REQUIRED!