Czech/DDR Good VS Bad? - Page 2

Look good GSDs are like nuggets. One gold nugget hunter and prospector said to me when I asked where to look that "they are where you find them". There are good dogs in WG and there are good dogs in Czech andn there are probably good dogs in Iceland. . You need to know where to look. Many people bought crappy dogs from crappy breeders for cheap and they will tell you that dogs from there are crap. If you look for dogs then you need to know what you want from such dog or if you want to bred you need to know what you want to produce. I (and others) can help you if you give me at least parents of your dog and what you want to produce,...then I can tell you what and where to look for. But at this point, your question is too broad and prone to controversial statements and opinions.

although i'm not a breeder, i do believe workability of the dogs mostly depends on continuity in selection of mating pairs, based on desirable traits, regardless bloodlines and/or promoted names. radical splitting on western and eastern types of GSDs, seems happened in 60s, when GSD breed in West did become rather sign of prestige than practical useful household worker.
heavy commercialization does degraded breed in West but yet, to reach the Eastern block it took another 30+ years, until collapse of communist regime and changes in mentality of the eastern breeders.

today comparison western GSDs vs. Eastern GSDs pretty much pointless effort. there are still few former eastern breeders, who remember old Eastern type of GSD and does attempt to somehow preserve it in the frame of commercial approach but seems this doesn't work.

There are plenty of "Eastern" type breeders. There still is a tremendous difference between work Czech lines and WG sport lines. The problem is to buy a dog from work Old Style Czech lines and not from sport Czech lines. Where sport Czech lines now prevalent in Czech rep are not too different from WG sport lines.
As far as bloodlines go they are tremendously important in order to determine the type of the dog, that is if you are talking about established 5 male bloodlines.

if one buys an Ellute X javir line pup in czech, it will not be much different than Ellute X Javir pup, from Germany or Belgium, and I would prefer to look at the actual quality of a dog rather than to which bloodline his sire is, the females carry more weight anyway

Duke: the females carry more weight anyway.

Absolutely, Duke!

eastern type breeders - you mean self proclaimed ones, who's advertising their supply as "true 100% DDR" pups for sale?

you see, main flaw of your argument for "dog from work Old Style Czech lines" - it doesn't works in commercial environmental. even back then in Eastern block not all offspring of even best possible parents, were considered to be worthy continuity in breeding, thus was written off and ends their life somewhere in yards on chains.

in commercial breeding well promoted and established name is all what needs a breeders. dog itself can be piece of crap, but if he or she an offspring, let's say Mambo, they will be bred to death, to cash-up on the name to the maximum possible.

Duke, your last post was spot on....

@ Duke. I disagree with your statement about bloodlines. It is hard to evaluate the future temperament of an 8-week old pup. 5 male bloodlines of GSD breed are not 100% but will give you a higher probability of what is going to happen because these bloodlines have very strong characteristic especially if the ped is for at least 3 generation in the same bloodline. My experience tells me that male bloodline has much stronger influence than the parents of the dog itself. The problem is that people do not understand breeding in bloodlines and thus are against it and breed goulash and that then leads to general confusion and all you have left are characteristics of the parents. But if you have an entire pedigree in let say 2nd male blodline for 3- 5 generations then it is almost 100% what the dog's temperament is going to be.

Prager: "...and all you have left are characteristics of the parents."

Isn't this the goal of breeding? Very simplified said: Taking the best dogs available, hoping for similar or even better characteristics in the puppies, sire and dam as similar as possible?

We had this discussion more than once.
Your "lines" do loose 50% of there genetics (from both sides sire and dam ) in every single generation. In the worst case a grandson of one of your "father lines" doesn't carry one single gene of it's grandfather any more.

I don't doubt that a serious breeder, knowing all dogs in a ped, breeding with one goal in mind, selecting the offspring according to these goals, will have success creating a "line" -
but telling people that there is a more than tiny chance that a 3./4., or even 5./6. generation offspring of any dog ( no matter it's famous name ) will show characteristics of said great great whatever father, no matter the actual parents/grandparents, is trying to tell people genetics don't matter, just believe in telltales.

that idea is passed by, by current genetic knowledge